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Practice · Dosing & titration

[2026 update] What steady state means for the decision to escalate

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KLindqvistTL4 Moderator3 Nov 2025#1

The question in the title: What steady state means for the decision to escalate I will give what I have already checked below so nobody repeats it.

Asking about steady state directly, because I have read four threads on it and each answered a slightly different question.

The version I want answered is the narrow one: given the method stated below, is the result within what anyone else has seen? I am not asking what it means yet.

Method, numbers and the two assumptions I am aware of making are below. If the assumptions are wrong that is more useful to me than agreement.

33 likes 9mo
DE
d.eriksenTL23 Nov 2025#2

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

7 likes 9mo
JM
j.mwangiTL4 Moderator3 Nov 2025#3
d.eriksen, post #2: Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose. Go to post

Adding a null result on steady state. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

1 like in reply to #2 9mo
SK
s.kimaniTL23 Nov 2025#4

Steady state would be much easier to settle if anyone reported the denominator. Almost nobody reports the denominator.

0 likes 9mo
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preregisteredTL3Research methods4 Nov 2025#5

I had written a reply contradicting post #3 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

The starting dose in most of these programmes is a tolerance step and produces little effect by design. Judging the compound at the starting dose is judging the wrong thing.

That is all the detail I have. Someone else will have more.

12 likes 9mo
AP
a.pereiraTL24 Nov 2025#6

Confirming post #3 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The most useful thing anyone has posted about steady state in this category was a table of what had been measured and by whom. That is what I would want again.

4 likes 9mo
PE
ppm_errorTL34 Nov 2025#7
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b.vanheckeTL24 Nov 2025#8

Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so.

0 likes 9mo
SC
s.cardosoTL24 Nov 2025#9
b.vanhecke, post #8: Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so. Go to post

Second this, and I would have said it less carefully.

33 likes in reply to #8 9mo
GI
g.ibarraTL25 Nov 2025#10
TV
to.vargaTL25 Nov 2025#11

What I can speak to on steady state is narrow, so I will keep it narrow rather than generalising from it. Beyond that boundary I do not know.

0 likes 9mo
GH
g.haalandTL3Regular5 Nov 2025 · edited#12

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

2 likes 9mo
IO
i.oseiTL25 Nov 2025#13
preregistered, post #5: I had written a reply contradicting post #3 and deleted it. Here is what survived. The starting dose in most of these programmes is a tolerance step and produces little effect by design. Judging the compound at the starting dose is judging the wrong thing. That is all the detail I have. Someone else will have more. Go to post

Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning.

9 likes in reply to #5 9mo
CD
cohort_driftTL3Regular5 Nov 2025#14
s.cardoso, post #9: Second this, and I would have said it less carefully. Go to post

Answering the question post #11 raises rather than the one it answers.

Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

21 likes in reply to #9 9mo
SO
s.oyelaranTL25 Nov 2025#15

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

0 likes 9mo
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OTeixeiraTL3Regular6 Nov 2025#16

That matches what I have seen, for whatever a single anecdote is worth.

0 likes 9mo
RC
r.coelhoTL26 Nov 2025#17
s.cardoso, post #9: Second this, and I would have said it less carefully. Go to post

Adding the measurement that post #15 says would settle it.

Escalating before steady state means you are judging a dose you have not yet fully experienced. That is the whole argument against compressing the schedule and it is a good one.

The reasoning is more useful than the number, which is why I have shown it.

5 likes in reply to #9 9mo
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MJayawardenaTL3Regular6 Nov 2025#18
i.osei, post #13: Holding a dose indefinitely: the trials did not study indefinite holding at a non-maximum dose. The trials escalated to a target and then held that. What happens if you stay at an intermediate dose for years is not formally studied and extrapolation is the best available reasoning. Go to post

Post #14 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

The failure mode on steady state is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

15 likes in reply to #13 9mo
BT
b.teixeiraTL26 Nov 2025#19

This follows post #17 rather than contradicting it.

I read the earlier replies on steady state twice before writing this, because I had assumed the opposite and wanted to be sure I was disagreeing with what was said rather than what I expected.

29 likes 9mo
EM
endpoint_marginTL26 Nov 2025#20
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MJayawardenaTL3Regular6 Nov 2025#21

Nothing to add, except that this is the answer I would give if asked.

0 likes 9mo
CM
c.marchettiTL26 Nov 2025#22

Post #19 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

For anyone finding this later: the short answer on steady state is that it depends on one thing, and the rest of the thread is people identifying which thing.

26 likes 9mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular7 Nov 2025 · edited#23

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

8 likes 9mo
MB
ma.balogunTL27 Nov 2025#24
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OkaforTL3Regular7 Nov 2025#25

I read post #23 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

There is no published evidence about slower escalation because nobody studied it. That means the trials support not going faster and are silent on going slower, which is a different claim from "slower is fine".

That matches what I was told, which is not the same as knowing it.

0 likes 9mo
FI
f.ibarraTL27 Nov 2025#26

Adding the boring version of steady state, because the interesting version keeps getting posted and the boring one is usually right.

Check the ordinary explanations, in order, and stop when one of them accounts for what you are seeing. Most of the time the second one does.

0 likes 9mo
SC
septum_checkTL1Member7 Nov 2025#27

Before the thread moves on from steady state — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

12 likes 9mo
DN
d.nilsenTL27 Nov 2025#28
to.varga, post #11: What I can speak to on steady state is narrow, so I will keep it narrow rather than generalising from it. Beyond that boundary I do not know. Go to post

Taking post #27 at face value and following it one step further.

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

Not the whole picture, but the part of it I can speak to.

4 likes in reply to #11 9mo
BS
buffer_sheetTL3Regular7 Nov 2025#29
MJayawardena, post #21: Nothing to add, except that this is the answer I would give if asked. Go to post

The question underneath steady state is usually "how would I tell?" rather than "what is true?", and that one has a method attached to it.

Write down what you would expect to see under each hypothesis before you collect anything. If they predict the same observation, collecting it will not help.

1 like in reply to #21 9mo
BW
b.wikstromTL27 Nov 2025#30

This is the answer, and the reason it is the answer is the more useful part.

3 likes 9mo