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Practice · Dosing & titration

[2026 update] Dose numbers across compounds are not on the same scale

KV
k.vanheckeTL21 Jan 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Dose numbers across compounds are not on the same scale Working notes rather than a conclusion.

A narrow question about Dose numbers across compounds, deliberately narrow, because the broad version has been asked here four times and produced four long threads and no answer.

One question, stated units, stated method, and what I have already ruled out.

3 likes 19mo
BV
bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician19 Jan 2025#2

Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on.

The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests.

6 likes 18mo
HD
h.delgadoTL21 Feb 2025#3

Dose equivalence between different incretin analogues is a weak concept. The molecules differ in structure, half-life, receptor selectivity, and in what has been studied clinically. One mg of semaglutide is not equivalent to one mg of something else in any meaningful sense.

17 likes 18mo
IT
impurity_tableTL3Analytical chemist13 Feb 2025#4
bias_variance, post #2: Steady state means the plasma concentration is stable from dose to dose. That happens around 4 to 5 half-lives. Before that, the concentration is rising with each dose. Escalating before steady state means escalating on incomplete information about the dose you are on. The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it… Go to post

The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is reasoning from theory, not from evidence.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

32 likes in reply to #2 17mo
NL
n.laurentTL224 Feb 2025#5
impurity_table, post #4: The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one. The arithmetic of an intermediate dose: if the label says 1.0 mg and 2.0 mg, a dose strictly between them is off-label by definition. Some people compute it anyway. The reasoning is pharmacological — e.g., "I will split the difference between steps" — but it is… Go to post

Concentration and dose get conflated constantly in this subcategory. Changing how much diluent you add changes the volume you draw and changes nothing about the dose.

I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled.

0 likes in reply to #4 17mo
CR
compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist6 Mar 2025#6

The maximum studied dose is a fact about the trial and not a ceiling on the molecule. It is also the last point at which anything is known, which is the reason to treat it as one.

3 likes 17mo
VB
va.baptistaTL216 Mar 2025#7
TV
t.vasquezTL4 Moderator25 Mar 2025#8

On post #4 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

If you are stepping up mainly because the schedule says so rather than because the current dose has stopped doing what you wanted, that is worth noticing before rather than afterwards.

That is what I would do. It may not be what is correct.

24 likes 16mo
HF
h.friskTL24 Apr 2025#9

Holding at a dose that is working is a legitimate position and it is not what the trial protocols did. The protocols escalated to a target because they were measuring the target dose, not finding each person's minimum.

0 likes 16mo
GP
g.pemberton_ukTL3Regional · UK12 Apr 2025#10

Noted, and I have changed what I was going to do on the strength of it.

1 like 15mo
SF
sterile_fileTL321 Apr 2025#11
CM
c.marchettiTL230 Apr 2025#12
sterile_file, post #11: The four-week escalation interval is a convention from the pivotal trials, not a pharmacological constant. The pharmacological argument is that with a week-long half-life, four weeks approaches steady state and you can assess the dose fairly. That is an argument for not going faster. It is not an argument against going slower. Go to post

Narrowing post #9, because the general version has more than one answer.

Splitting a weekly dose in two: the pharmacokinetic argument against is that you want the benefit of long half-life, which gives a slowly changing plasma level from a weekly dosing schedule. Splitting it flattens the curve further but loses the convenience of once-weekly dosing. The trade-off is convenience versus a slightly flatter concentration curve.

14 likes in reply to #11 15mo
AS
a.stephanopoulosTL3Regular8 May 2025#13

Post #12 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal evidence base but is not uncommon in practice.

I would put a moderate confidence on that and no more.

2 likes 15mo
LC
l.cabreraTL216 May 2025#14

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

0 likes 14mo
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular24 May 2025#15
k.vanhecke, post #1: On the subject in the title: Dose numbers across compounds are not on the same scale Working notes rather than a conclusion. A narrow question about Dose numbers across compounds, deliberately narrow, because the broad version has been asked here four times and produced four long threads and no answer. One question, stated units, stated… Go to post

Writing down the date, the dose and the site each week takes fifteen seconds and is the single most useful record anyone here keeps. Memory reconstructs a titration history that never happened.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

0 likes in reply to #1 14mo
SS
s.salgadoTL21 Jun 2025#16
a.stephanopoulos, post #13: Post #12 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction. Titrating on tolerability rather than on the calendar: some people escalate when they tolerate a dose well, others escalate on the prescribed schedule regardless. The published trials used a calendar-based schedule. Tolerability-based escalation has no formal… Go to post

Going back down a step is not a failure and the trials allowed it. Several protocols permitted a return to the previous dose for tolerability and then a second attempt at the step.

20 likes in reply to #13 14mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular9 Jun 2025#17

Post #15 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Dose and effect are not linear across the studied range for every compound in this class. Assuming a doubled dose gives a doubled effect is the reasoning error behind most disappointment.

5 likes 14mo
MB
ma.balogunTL216 Jun 2025#18

Building on post #15 rather than restating it.

The starting dose in most of these programmes is a tolerance step and produces little effect by design. Judging the compound at the starting dose is judging the wrong thing.

0 likes 13mo
VK
v.klausenTL3Regular24 Jun 2025#19

Coming back to post #15, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

If symptoms reset at each step, that is the expected pattern rather than a sign that the previous adaptation was imaginary. Every dose increase is a new exposure.

I would rather say I do not know than round it up to an answer.

14 likes 13mo

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