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Evidence · Trials

[2026 update] How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch

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Solved by KLindqvist in post #5
Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

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AZ
an.zamoraTL223 Nov 2024#1

How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked.

Reading SURMOUNT-4 (JAMA, 2024) for the population rather than the effect, which I have not done properly before.

The baseline table is more restrictive than the way the trial gets discussed here. Several of the questions in this category come from people who would not have been enrolled.

What is the honest way to describe what the trial says to somebody outside its population?

0 likes 20mo
VN
v.nascimentoTL224 Nov 2024#2

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

On reflection I would soften that slightly.

0 likes 20mo
LW
l.wikstromTL225 Nov 2024#3

The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

Written from notes rather than memory, which is why the numbers are specific.

8 likes 20mo
FK
f.kimaniTL226 Nov 2024#4

Where I part company with post #2, and it is a narrow parting.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

A modest claim, modestly supported.

19 likes 20mo
K
KLindqvistTL4 Moderator Solution27 Nov 2024 · edited#5

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

27 likes 20mo
JP
j.petrovTL228 Nov 2024#6
l.wikstrom, post #3: The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. Written from notes rather than memory, which is why the numbers are specific. Go to post

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

0 likes in reply to #3 20mo
DO
d.oyelaranTL3Pharmacist28 Nov 2024#7

Reading rather than answering, but this is the post I would point somebody at.

4 likes 20mo
NK
n.krastevTL229 Nov 2024#8

I had written a reply contradicting post #6 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

Small point, but it is the one that usually catches people.

13 likes 20mo
KA
k.agyemanTL230 Nov 2024#9

Narrowing post #8, because the general version has more than one answer.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

That is what I would do. It may not be what is correct.

20 likes 20mo
BM
buffer_marginTL3Regular30 Nov 2024#10

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

0 likes 20mo
TV
t.vasquezTL4 Moderator1 Dec 2024#11
l.wikstrom, post #3: The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. Written from notes rather than memory, which is why the numbers are specific. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #9 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

0 likes in reply to #3 20mo
VS
v.sjobergTL22 Dec 2024#12
an.zamora, post #1: How to read a forest plot, properly, from scratch — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked. Reading SURMOUNT-4 ( JAMA , 2024) for the population rather than the effect, which I have not done properly before. The baseline table is more restrictive than the way the trial gets discussed here.… Go to post

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

29 likes in reply to #1 20mo
ZO
z.onwukaTL22 Dec 2024 · edited#13

Quietly grateful for the plain phrasing. Not every thread gets that.

14 likes 20mo
MR
m.rasmussenTL23 Dec 2024#14

Picking up post #12: that is the part I would want checked first.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

5 likes 20mo
IT
impurity_tableTL3Analytical chemist4 Dec 2024#15

Coming back to post #14, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

0 likes 20mo
IN
i.norgaardTL24 Dec 2024#16
m.rasmussen, post #14: Picking up post #12: that is the part I would want checked first. Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. Go to post

Post #14 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

22 likes in reply to #14 20mo
CR
compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist5 Dec 2024 · edited#17

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

I would treat the number as indicative rather than as a measurement.

9 likes 20mo
NL
n.laurentTL25 Dec 2024#18

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

I have separated what I observed from what I concluded, which does not always happen.

2 likes 20mo
TA
t.abubakarTL26 Dec 2024#19
k.agyeman, post #9: Narrowing post #8, because the general version has more than one answer. Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not),… Go to post

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

The variance between people here is larger than the effect being discussed.

2 likes in reply to #9 20mo
P
PSkarbekTL3Regular6 Dec 2024#20

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

0 likes 20mo
K
KAnderssonTL3Regular7 Dec 2024#21

Building on post #18 rather than restating it.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

0 likes 20mo
ST
s.teixeiraTL28 Dec 2024#22

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

4 likes 20mo
DS
d.szymanskiTL3Wiki editor8 Dec 2024#23

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it.

18 likes 20mo
EN
e.ndiayeTL29 Dec 2024#24
n.laurent, post #18: Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. I have separated what I observed from what I concluded, which does not always happen. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

I am describing what is, rather than arguing for what should be.

0 likes in reply to #18 20mo
GT
g.tanakaTL3Regular9 Dec 2024#25

Post #22 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

0 likes 20mo
MM
m.mwangiTL210 Dec 2024#26

Where I part company with post #24, and it is a narrow parting.

Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together.

2 likes 20mo
PR
policy_readerTL2Regular10 Dec 2024#27
v.sjoberg, post #12: Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size. This is the version I would want a new member to read first. Go to post

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

12 likes in reply to #12 20mo
EA
e.adeyemiTL211 Dec 2024 · edited#28
n.laurent, post #18: Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. I have separated what I observed from what I concluded, which does not always happen. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

26 likes in reply to #18 20mo
MD
m.dalgaardTL3Regular11 Dec 2024#29

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

One case, stated as one case.

0 likes 20mo
AJ
a.jansenTL212 Dec 2024#30

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

Stating my assumptions rather than smuggling them in.

0 likes 20mo