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Analytics · HPLC & UHPLC

Carryover and the ghost peak from last week's standard

PB
p.boatengTL230 Mar 2025#1

On the subject in the title: Carryover and the ghost peak from last week's standard Working notes rather than a conclusion.

What changes if the standard account of carryover is wrong? I ask because I have been treating it as settled and I noticed this week that I could not say why.

Working through the consequences rather than the evidence, since others here are better placed on the evidence.

21 likes 16mo
FD
f.demirTL2Regular31 Mar 2025#2

Agreed on carryover, with one qualification that I think matters. The reasoning holds for the case as described. Change the starting assumption and it does not, and the starting assumption is the part nobody states.

24 likes 16mo
JM
j.moreauTL231 Mar 2025#3

A methods point on carryover rather than a substantive one: if the comparison is not like for like, the difference you are measuring is the difference in method.

0 likes 16mo
KO
k.otieno_statsTL3Statistician31 Mar 2025#4

The opening post and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Method validation is the demonstration that a method can separate the compound from its degradation products and impurities reliably. A method that cannot resolve an impurity from the parent peak will not detect that impurity.

On balance I think that is right, and I would not bet much on it.

1 like 16mo
HD
h.delgadoTL231 Mar 2025#5
j.moreau, post #3: A methods point on carryover rather than a substantive one: if the comparison is not like for like, the difference you are measuring is the difference in method. Go to post

The version of carryover that circulates here is a simplification of a simplification. It is not wrong, but it has lost the conditions under which it holds, and those conditions are where the interesting cases live.

7 likes in reply to #3 16mo
SS
system_suitabilityTL31 Apr 2025#6
JA
j.asanteTL21 Apr 2025#7

Building on post #5 rather than restating it.

Mobile-phase preparation is a genuine source of between-laboratory variation. Acid concentration and organic modifier both shift retention, and neither is usually specified to the precision that would matter.

Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable.

33 likes 16mo
CR
compounding_ruthTL4Pharmacist1 Apr 2025#8

Post #4 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Carryover looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour.

0 likes 16mo
NB
n.boatengTL21 Apr 2025#9

A chromatogram image at a resolution where you can see peak shape but not baseline detail is worth having and is not the same as the data. Ask for the integration table if the number matters.

4 likes 16mo
CR
crossover_reviewTL3Regular1 Apr 2025#10

I had written a reply contradicting post #8 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Carryover from a previous injection shows up as a small peak at the same retention time in a blank. A method report that includes a blank injection is telling you the analyst checked.

I have written this out at length because the short version keeps being misread.

12 likes 16mo
AN
a.nascimentoTL22 Apr 2025#11

Two things can be true about carryover at once: the mechanism is plausible and the evidence for the size of the effect is thin. Most of the argument here is people defending the first against attacks on the second.

24 likes 16mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL3Translator · DE2 Apr 2025#12
compounding_ruth, post #8: Post #4 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. Carryover looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour. Go to post

Before anything else: what was the gradient, and at what wavelength? Area percent at different wavelengths is not the same number even on the same sample because different species absorb differently at different wavelengths. With the method stated, I can tell you something useful. Without it, all I can say is that there is one large peak.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

11 likes in reply to #8 16mo
VK
v.kjaerTL22 Apr 2025#13

Post #11 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

For anyone finding this later: the short answer on carryover is that it depends on one thing, and the rest of the thread is people identifying which thing.

1 like 16mo
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular2 Apr 2025#14

Building on post #11 rather than restating it.

Carryover is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for.

0 likes 16mo
YI
y.ibarraTL22 Apr 2025#15
k.brandl_de, post #12: Before anything else: what was the gradient, and at what wavelength? Area percent at different wavelengths is not the same number even on the same sample because different species absorb differently at different wavelengths. With the method stated, I can tell you something useful. Without it, all I can say is that there is one large… Go to post

Noted, and I have changed what I was going to do on the strength of it.

32 likes in reply to #12 16mo
PN
plateau_notesTL2Regular2 Apr 2025#16
n.boateng, post #9: A chromatogram image at a resolution where you can see peak shape but not baseline detail is worth having and is not the same as the data. Ask for the integration table if the number matters. Go to post

Gradient slope is the single biggest driver of apparent purity differences. A shallower gradient over a longer run resolves more impurities and gives a higher purity figure. A steep gradient produces a tidier-looking chromatogram with fewer visible peaks and gives a lower purity figure. Both are legitimate methods and they will not produce the same number.

One case, stated as one case.

16 likes in reply to #9 16mo
MA
m.almeidaTL23 Apr 2025#17

Peak purity: a diode-array detector records a spectrum at every time point. If a peak contains two co-eluting species with different spectra, the spectrum changes across the peak. A passing peak-purity result says the spectrum is constant; it is weak evidence of homogeneity if the impurities have similar spectra.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

3 likes 16mo
AK
a.kowalczykTL2Regular3 Apr 2025 · edited#18

Post #16 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Before the thread moves on from carryover — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

0 likes 16mo
ZA
z.adeyemiTL23 Apr 2025#19

I read post #16 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

I would put moderate confidence on the mainstream reading of carryover and no more. That is not scepticism for its own sake; it is where the sourcing actually stops.

12 likes 16mo
R
RidgewayTL3Regular3 Apr 2025#20

Post #19 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Change the wavelength and the proportions change even though the sample has not. That is the reason the wavelength has to be on the document for the number to mean anything.

4 likes 16mo
EN
electrolyte_notesTL2Regular3 Apr 2025#21
plateau_notes, post #16: Gradient slope is the single biggest driver of apparent purity differences. A shallower gradient over a longer run resolves more impurities and gives a higher purity figure. A steep gradient produces a tidier-looking chromatogram with fewer visible peaks and gives a lower purity figure. Both are legitimate methods and they will not… Go to post

The practical version of carryover is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

16 likes in reply to #16 16mo
BD
b.dumitruTL23 Apr 2025#22

Coming back to post #18, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

I would keep carryover and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly.

31 likes 16mo
NT
nl_translatorTL2Translator · NL3 Apr 2025#23

Typical suitability criteria are a replicate area relative standard deviation below about two per cent, a tailing factor inside a defined window, a resolution minimum against a specified peak, and a plate-count floor.

0 likes 16mo
VB
v.bruunTL24 Apr 2025 · edited#24
a.nascimento, post #11: Two things can be true about carryover at once: the mechanism is plausible and the evidence for the size of the effect is thin. Most of the argument here is people defending the first against attacks on the second. Go to post

On carryover the community has more anecdote than the confidence in this thread implies, and I include my own contribution in that.

3 likes in reply to #11 16mo
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance4 Apr 2025#25

Reading rather than answering, but this is the post I would point somebody at.

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RL
r.lundgrenTL24 Apr 2025#26

I had written a reply contradicting post #22 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Careful with the language on carryover. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method.

23 likes 16mo
DM
d.moreauTL2Regular4 Apr 2025#27

Detection wavelength: 214 nm detects the peptide bond and is relatively insensitive to composition. 280 nm detects aromatic residues and is strongly composition-dependent. Area percent at one wavelength is not area percent at the other.

0 likes 16mo
ZC
z.cardosoTL24 Apr 2025#28
BI
blank_injectionTL2Analytical chemist4 Apr 2025#29

Post #27 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Trying to state the carryover position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test.

30 likes 16mo
NV
n.villalobosTL25 Apr 2025#30

Carryover sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

0 likes 16mo