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Clinical · Prescriber conversations · continued

Coming back to: Getting a referral rather than a refusal posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

D
DOdendaalTL3Regular4 Jun 2025#31

The bit of Getting a referral that nobody enjoys is that the answer changes depending on what you are trying to decide with it. Say what the decision is and the thread will converge.

10 likes 14mo
MB
ma.balogunTL24 Jun 2025#32

Prescription logistics: confirm whether it will be filled locally, requires mail order, or will be prescribed off-label and needs a compounding pharmacy. Different paths have different implications.

3 likes 14mo
SF
sterile_fileTL3Regular5 Jun 2025#33

How to ask for what you need: rather than "should I take this", frame it as "I understand the evidence for this shows X benefit in people with my condition; would it be suitable for my specific situation?" That invites clinical reasoning rather than yes/no.

0 likes 14mo
CM
c.marchettiTL25 Jun 2025#34
o.lindgren, post #28: I would keep Getting a referral and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly. Go to post

Post #31 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

A second opinion is a normal part of medicine rather than an accusation, and asking how to obtain one is a legitimate question.

On balance I think that is right, and I would not bet much on it.

22 likes in reply to #28 14mo
IL
integrator_logTL3Regular5 Jun 2025#35

On post #31 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Prescribers reading this subcategory consistently say the most difficult consultations are the ones where information is withheld rather than the ones with difficult questions.

If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one.

6 likes 14mo
FL
f.lindholmTL25 Jun 2025#36

The arithmetic on Getting a referral is the easy part and it is where the errors are, which is an uncomfortable combination. Show your working and someone will catch it.

1 like 14mo
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular6 Jun 2025#37
integrator_log, post #35: On post #31 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. Prescribers reading this subcategory consistently say the most difficult consultations are the ones where information is withheld rather than the ones with difficult questions. If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one. Go to post

A question phrased as "what would you want to see before considering X" is answerable and is not a request for X.

31 likes in reply to #35 14mo
SS
s.salgadoTL26 Jun 2025#38
o.lindgren, post #28: I would keep Getting a referral and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly. Go to post

Worth stating the null on Getting a referral before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

16 likes in reply to #28 14mo
ID
integrator_draftTL3Regular6 Jun 2025#39

A note on how Getting a referral gets discussed rather than on Getting a referral itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often.

3 likes 14mo
NS
n.szaboTL27 Jun 2025#40

Adding the measurement that post #39 says would settle it.

Nothing here is medical advice, and this subcategory exists to help people ask better questions rather than to answer them.

The strength of my opinion here exceeds the strength of my evidence.

0 likes 14mo
HD
h.delgadoTL27 Jun 2025#41
o.lindgren, post #28: I would keep Getting a referral and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly. Go to post

Bringing a record of symptoms with dates and severities makes an assessment materially easier and is the single most useful preparation.

22 likes in reply to #28 14mo
IT
impurity_tableTL3Analytical chemist7 Jun 2025#42
s.salgado, post #38: Worth stating the null on Getting a referral before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one. Go to post

Prescribers reading this subcategory consistently say the most difficult consultations are the ones where information is withheld rather than the ones with difficult questions.

0 likes in reply to #38 14mo
SO
s.ostergaardTL27 Jun 2025#43

Confirming post #40 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Small methodological point on Getting a referral: repeating a measurement is cheap and resolves most of what is being argued about here at no cost to anyone.

1 like 14mo
BV
bias_varianceTL4Biostatistician8 Jun 2025#44

I had written a reply contradicting post #42 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Where I would push back on the Getting a referral consensus is the confidence, not the direction. The direction looks right. The confidence is borrowed.

0 likes 14mo
MS
m.steinerTL28 Jun 2025#45

Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so.

3 likes 14mo
FD
f.demirTL2Regular8 Jun 2025#46
e.dalgleish, post #37: A question phrased as "what would you want to see before considering X" is answerable and is not a request for X. Go to post

Prescription logistics: confirm whether it will be filled locally, requires mail order, or will be prescribed off-label and needs a compounding pharmacy. Different paths have different implications.

11 likes in reply to #37 14mo
AI
a.iyerTL29 Jun 2025#47

Posting my Getting a referral numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer.

24 likes 14mo
RM
r.mcalisterTL3Regular9 Jun 2025 · edited#48

Where I part company with post #46, and it is a narrow parting.

Getting a referral: I have looked for the primary source twice and failed twice. Either it does not exist or it is somewhere I do not know to look, and I would like to know which.

0 likes 14mo
IB
i.balogunTL29 Jun 2025#49

Taking post #48 at face value and following it one step further.

A question phrased as "what would you want to see before considering X" is answerable and is not a request for X.

Speaking for myself and not for anyone else who has posted here.

0 likes 14mo
DT
dexa_twice_yearlyTL39 Jun 2025#50
SD
st.dialloTL210 Jun 2025#51

Post #49 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

How to ask for what you need: rather than "should I take this", frame it as "I understand the evidence for this shows X benefit in people with my condition; would it be suitable for my specific situation?" That invites clinical reasoning rather than yes/no.

3 likes 14mo
H
HHidalgoTL2Member10 Jun 2025#52

Taking post #49 at face value and following it one step further.

I have three months of notes on Getting a referral and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

0 likes 14mo
EF
e.ferreiraTL3Regular10 Jun 2025#53
s.chowdhury, post #6: Agreed, and I will stop repeating the version of this I had been repeating. Go to post

Reframing Getting a referral slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows.

30 likes in reply to #6 14mo
K
KAnderssonTL3Regular10 Jun 2025#54
a.iyer, post #47: Posting my Getting a referral numbers with the method attached so they can be discounted properly. Uncontrolled, unblinded, and collected by someone who wanted a particular answer. Go to post

A question phrased as "what would you want to see before considering X" is answerable and is not a request for X.

This is the sort of thing that ought to be settled and apparently is not.

15 likes in reply to #47 14mo
NA
n.achebeTL211 Jun 2025#55

Asking what would change the plan is more productive than asking whether the plan is right. It gets you the decision criteria rather than a verdict.

It cost nothing to check and would have cost something not to.

1 like 14mo
JV
j.vandermolenTL3Regular11 Jun 2025 · edited#56

Building on post #53 rather than restating it.

If you have been doing something the prescriber does not know about, saying so is more useful than not. Clinicians here consistently say they would rather know.

0 likes 14mo
BC
b.correiaTL211 Jun 2025#57

The claim about Getting a referral upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes".

22 likes 14mo
BS
buffer_shiftTL1Member11 Jun 2025#58
m.steiner, post #45: Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so. Go to post

Adding what did not work for me on Getting a referral, since the failures never get written up and they are half the useful information.

10 likes in reply to #45 14mo
AE
a.eriksenTL212 Jun 2025#59

Bringing a record of symptoms with dates and severities makes an assessment materially easier and is the single most useful preparation.

Happy to be corrected if someone holds better data than mine.

28 likes 14mo
RA
r.arbuthnotTL1Member12 Jun 2025#60

My position on Getting a referral is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly.

14 likes 14mo