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Devices · Syringes & needles

Fixed versus detachable needles: the trade-offs

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Solved by k.fonseca in post #6
Post #2 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most.

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HN
h.nwosuTL210 Nov 2024#1

Posting this under the heading it deserves: Fixed versus detachable needles: the trade-offs Everything below is what sits behind that.

I was wrong about fixed versus detachable needles in a thread last spring and I would like to correct it publicly rather than quietly.

The error was in the units, which changed the conclusion by an order of magnitude. Setting out the corrected version, and the way I now check for that class of mistake.

50 likes 21mo
AV
a.vukovicTL211 Nov 2024#2

Where I part company with the opening post, and it is a narrow parting.

Agreed on fixed versus detachable needles, with one qualification that I think matters. The reasoning holds for the case as described. Change the starting assumption and it does not, and the starting assumption is the part nobody states.

0 likes 21mo
PW
PharmNotes_WhitfieldTL4Pharmacist12 Nov 2024#3

Sharps containers are a legal requirement for disposal in several jurisdictions and a sensible precaution everywhere. A rigid sealed container is the minimum.

4 likes 20mo
SM
s.mbekiTL214 Nov 2024#4

Gauge is the outside diameter and higher numbers are thinner. Thinner needles hurt less and draw more slowly, which is the entire trade.

The honest answer is that it depends, and here is what it depends on.

13 likes 20mo
RD
r.danquahTL215 Nov 2024#5

Adding thanks rather than a view. I do not have a view worth the space.

0 likes 20mo
KF
k.fonsecaTL2 Solution15 Nov 2024#6

Post #2 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most.

7 likes 20mo
KV
k.vanheckeTL216 Nov 2024#7
s.mbeki, post #4: Gauge is the outside diameter and higher numbers are thinner. Thinner needles hurt less and draw more slowly, which is the entire trade. The honest answer is that it depends, and here is what it depends on. Go to post

What I would want before treating fixed versus detachable needles as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing.

8 likes in reply to #4 20mo
VB
v.baptistaTL217 Nov 2024#8

Reading back through the fixed versus detachable needles threads from last year, the same three questions come up every time and only one of them has ever been answered properly. That seems like a documentation gap rather than a knowledge gap.

19 likes 20mo
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular18 Nov 2024#9

U-100 means the barrel is graduated for a solution containing one hundred units of insulin per millilitre. For anything that is not insulin, the units are simply hundredths of a millilitre.

I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled.

14 likes 20mo
NC
n.cabreraTL219 Nov 2024#10

Dead volume: residual liquid in the hub and needle after withdrawal. Typical residual is 0.01 to 0.02 mL for an insulin syringe with a fixed needle. Accounting for it matters if precision matters.

If it helps: the failure mode here is usually boring rather than dramatic.

28 likes 20mo
PN
p.novakTL220 Nov 2024#11

Needle gauge: smaller numbers (30G) are finer and less painful. Larger numbers (25G) are courser. For subcutaneous injection, 27-30G is typical. Finer needles take longer to draw up but hurt less.

9 likes 20mo
TK
t.kulkarniTL3Regular20 Nov 2024 · edited#12

I came in to disagree and I am leaving without a disagreement.

2 likes 20mo
AV
a.vermeulenTL221 Nov 2024#13

An honest declaration on fixed versus detachable needles: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it.

0 likes 20mo
RJ
r.jhannsdttirTL3Regular22 Nov 2024#14
journalclub_wren, post #9: U-100 means the barrel is graduated for a solution containing one hundred units of insulin per millilitre. For anything that is not insulin, the units are simply hundredths of a millilitre. I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled. Go to post

Sharps disposal: needles and syringes should be disposed in a sharps container (a rigid, puncture-resistant container). Do not put them in regular trash. Many pharmacies accept filled sharps containers.

None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any.

29 likes in reply to #9 20mo
NK
ni.kravchenkoTL223 Nov 2024#15

I had written a reply contradicting post #13 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

The practical version of fixed versus detachable needles is three sentences long. The rigorous version is three pages and reaches the same conclusion with the conditions attached.

14 likes 20mo
IS
isotonic_sheetTL3Regular23 Nov 2024#16

Confirming post #13 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

On fixed versus detachable needles the community has more anecdote than the confidence in this thread implies, and I include my own contribution in that.

5 likes 20mo
PK
p.krastevTL224 Nov 2024#17
h.nwosu, post #1: Posting this under the heading it deserves: Fixed versus detachable needles: the trade-offs Everything below is what sits behind that. I was wrong about fixed versus detachable needles in a thread last spring and I would like to correct it publicly rather than quietly. The error was in the units, which changed the conclusion by an order… Go to post

Needle length for subcutaneous delivery is a question about tissue depth and injection angle together. Short needles at ninety degrees and longer ones at an angle reach comparable depths.

Adding it because I spent an afternoon working it out and nobody should have to twice.

0 likes in reply to #1 20mo
RV
r.venkatesanTL3Wiki editor25 Nov 2024#18
r.jhannsdttir, post #14: Sharps disposal: needles and syringes should be disposed in a sharps container (a rigid, puncture-resistant container). Do not put them in regular trash. Many pharmacies accept filled sharps containers. None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any. Go to post

Filter needles are for drawing from glass ampoules where particulate is a real risk. For a stoppered vial they add dead volume in exchange for very little.

0 likes in reply to #14 20mo
FD
f.danquahTL225 Nov 2024 · edited#19
p.novak, post #11: Needle gauge: smaller numbers (30G) are finer and less painful. Larger numbers (25G) are courser. For subcutaneous injection, 27-30G is typical. Finer needles take longer to draw up but hurt less. Go to post

Everything in post #17 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

The strongest argument against my own position on fixed versus detachable needles, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet.

3 likes in reply to #11 20mo
MM
maintenance_modeTL3Regular26 Nov 2024#20

Coring the stopper is a real phenomenon with repeated entries at the same point and blunt needles. Varying the entry point slightly and using a fresh needle prevents it.

Happy to be corrected if someone holds better data than mine.

0 likes 20mo
RR
r.restrepoTL227 Nov 2024#21
journalclub_wren, post #9: U-100 means the barrel is graduated for a solution containing one hundred units of insulin per millilitre. For anything that is not insulin, the units are simply hundredths of a millilitre. I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled. Go to post

What I would tell a new member reading about fixed versus detachable needles for the first time: the confident posts are not the reliable ones, and the reliable ones are longer.

21 likes in reply to #9 20mo
CC
c.correiaTL227 Nov 2024#22
r.jhannsdttir, post #14: Sharps disposal: needles and syringes should be disposed in a sharps container (a rigid, puncture-resistant container). Do not put them in regular trash. Many pharmacies accept filled sharps containers. None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any. Go to post

Fixed versus detachable needles would be much easier to settle if anyone reported the denominator. Almost nobody reports the denominator.

0 likes in reply to #14 20mo
MM
m.malinowskiTL228 Nov 2024#23
ML
m.lindqvistTL229 Nov 2024#24

Answering the question post #20 raises rather than the one it answers.

Fixed versus detachable needles: insulin syringes usually have fixed needles (no dead volume loss to the hub). Luer-lock syringes use detachable needles (more dead volume). Fixed needles are preferred for small doses.

9 likes 20mo
DF
d.fontaineTL229 Nov 2024#25

That reframing is the whole thing. The facts I already had.

29 likes 20mo
FS
f.sjobergTL230 Nov 2024#26
f.danquah, post #19: Everything in post #17 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. The strongest argument against my own position on fixed versus detachable needles, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet. Go to post

Needle length: typical lengths for subcutaneous injection are 4-6 mm (short), 8 mm (standard), or 10-12 mm (longer). Longer needles are needed for deeper tissue or if you have abdominal adiposity.

The rule of thumb is fine; the edge cases are where it earns its keep.

0 likes in reply to #19 20mo
ME
me.eriksenTL21 Dec 2024#27

Narrowing post #26, because the general version has more than one answer.

Distinguishing three things in the fixed versus detachable needles discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

5 likes 20mo
KS
k.salinasTL21 Dec 2024#28

Everything in post #24 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most.

14 likes 20mo
SK
s.karlsen_rphTL3Pharmacist2 Dec 2024#29

This follows post #26 rather than contradicting it.

Having read the whole fixed versus detachable needles thread before replying: the question in the first post has not actually been answered yet, and three of us have answered a nearby one instead.

0 likes 20mo
OV
o.vukovicTL23 Dec 2024#30
a.vermeulen, post #13: An honest declaration on fixed versus detachable needles: I have a prior here and it is strong enough that you should weight what I say downward. Stating it rather than hiding it. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #28 runs together.

Gauge is the outside diameter and higher numbers are thinner. Thinner needles hurt less and draw more slowly, which is the entire trade.

0 likes in reply to #13 20mo