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Devices · Syringes & needles

Follow-up: Dead volume across syringe and needle combinations

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Solved by dietitian_hollis in post #8
Insulin syringe graduations: U-100 syringes are marked in units where 100 units = 1 mL. Always confirm your syringe is U-100. Confusion between insulin units and milligrams is the most common syringe error. The reasoning is more useful than the number, which is why I have shown it.

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ST
stopper_traceTL2Member13 Jun 2024#1

Dead volume across syringe and needle combinations — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

A follow-up question about Dead volume across syringe that I did not know to ask the first time.

The earlier thread answered what I asked. What I should have asked is below, and I think it is the one that matters.

0 likes 2.1y
NE
n.ekstromTL2Regular19 Jun 2024#2

The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most.

That much is documented. The rest is how I have interpreted it.

19 likes 2.1y
SV
s.vukovicTL223 Jun 2024#3
n.ekstrom, post #2: The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most. That much is documented. The rest is how I have interpreted it. Go to post

The opening post describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Safety-engineered needles are worth using if you have children or anyone else in the house, and the retraction mechanism occupies dead volume that ordinary syringes do not.

8 likes in reply to #2 2.1y
SS
steady_stateTL3Regular27 Jun 2024#4

Adding the measurement that post #3 says would settle it.

I have three months of notes on Dead volume across syringe and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

2 likes 2.1y
YA
y.asanteTL21 Jul 2024#5

Syringe barrel size: common sizes are 0.3 mL, 0.5 mL, and 1.0 mL. Smaller barrels are more legible for small doses. Larger barrels hold larger volumes. Choose based on your dose.

I would put a moderate confidence on that and no more.

0 likes 2.1y
JW
journalclub_wrenTL3Regular4 Jul 2024 · edited#6
steady_state, post #4: Adding the measurement that post #3 says would settle it. I have three months of notes on Dead volume across syringe and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight. Go to post

Thank you for taking the time. That was more work than a reply usually is.

26 likes in reply to #4 2.1y
EH
e.halonenTL27 Jul 2024#7
DH
dietitian_hollisTL3Dietitian Solution10 Jul 2024#8

Insulin syringe graduations: U-100 syringes are marked in units where 100 units = 1 mL. Always confirm your syringe is U-100. Confusion between insulin units and milligrams is the most common syringe error.

The reasoning is more useful than the number, which is why I have shown it.

11 likes 2y
ER
e.roosTL213 Jul 2024#9
e.halonen, post #7: Answering the question post #3 raises rather than the one it answers. Offering a way to settle Dead volume across syringe rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision. Go to post

Coming back to post #8, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Fixed versus detachable needles: insulin syringes usually have fixed needles (no dead volume loss to the hub). Luer-lock syringes use detachable needles (more dead volume). Fixed needles are preferred for small doses.

0 likes in reply to #7 2y
CI
citation_indexTL2Member16 Jul 2024#10
journalclub_wren, post #6: Thank you for taking the time. That was more work than a reply usually is. Go to post

The reason Dead volume across syringe is hard to answer is that the obvious measurement and the relevant quantity are not the same thing, and substituting one for the other is silent.

0 likes in reply to #6 2y
AD
a.delgadoTL219 Jul 2024#11

The failure mode on Dead volume across syringe is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong.

0 likes 2y
MH
m.haddadTL2Regular22 Jul 2024#12

Answering the question post #10 raises rather than the one it answers.

U-100 means the barrel is graduated for a solution containing one hundred units of insulin per millilitre. For anything that is not insulin, the units are simply hundredths of a millilitre.

3 likes 2y
SA
s.adebayoTL225 Jul 2024#13

Post #12 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Dead volume: residual liquid in the hub and needle after withdrawal. Typical residual is 0.01 to 0.02 mL for an insulin syringe with a fixed needle. Accounting for it matters if precision matters.

10 likes 2y
WP
weekly_pinTL2Regular27 Jul 2024#14
dietitian_hollis, post #8: Insulin syringe graduations: U-100 syringes are marked in units where 100 units = 1 mL. Always confirm your syringe is U-100. Confusion between insulin units and milligrams is the most common syringe error. The reasoning is more useful than the number, which is why I have shown it. Go to post

Check what the graduations actually say rather than what you expect. A syringe marked in units and one marked in millilitres look similar at a glance and are not the same instrument.

Happy to be corrected if someone holds better data than mine.

22 likes in reply to #8 2y
RW
r.weissTL230 Jul 2024#15

Barrel size determines resolution and nothing else. A 0.3 mL barrel and a 1 mL barrel deliver the same volume equally well; the smaller one lets you see what you are delivering.

If the premise is wrong, everything after it is decoration.

1 like 2y
AL
aliquot_lineTL3Regular2 Aug 2024 · edited#16

Drawing through a wider needle and injecting through a thinner one is a reasonable approach for a viscous preparation and pointless for an aqueous one.

The claim is narrower than it sounds, and deliberately so.

6 likes 2y
KM
k.marchandTL24 Aug 2024#17

Building on post #16 rather than restating it.

Needle length: typical lengths for subcutaneous injection are 4-6 mm (short), 8 mm (standard), or 10-12 mm (longer). Longer needles are needed for deeper tissue or if you have abdominal adiposity.

15 likes 2y
FT
fr.translation_moTL2Translator · FR7 Aug 2024#18

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

30 likes 2y
FP
f.piresTL29 Aug 2024#19
a.delgado, post #11: The failure mode on Dead volume across syringe is boring rather than dramatic. It is almost always the step everyone assumes was done correctly because it is too simple to get wrong. Go to post

I will take the caveat as seriously as the claim, which is the point of putting it there.

2 likes in reply to #11 2y
GD
glossary_deskTL3Regular12 Aug 2024#20

Reusing a needle blunts it and there is no benefit to offset that. The second injection with the same needle is the one people describe as painful.

This is the sort of thing the wiki should carry and currently does not.

9 likes 2y
ED
e.dalgleishTL3Regular14 Aug 2024#21

Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together.

Needle gauge: smaller numbers (30G) are finer and less painful. Larger numbers (25G) are courser. For subcutaneous injection, 27-30G is typical. Finer needles take longer to draw up but hurt less.

That holds under the stated conditions and I have stated them.

11 likes 23mo
RI
r.ilungaTL217 Aug 2024#22

This follows post #20 rather than contradicting it.

Fixed-needle insulin syringes have the least dead volume of any common configuration. At small doses that difference is a measurable fraction of what you meant to deliver.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

3 likes 23mo
SG
s.grahameTL2Member19 Aug 2024#23

Since Dead volume across syringe keeps coming up, it should probably be a maintained page rather than a recurring thread. I am happy to draft it if someone with more direct experience will review it.

0 likes 23mo
ER
e.roosTL221 Aug 2024#24
n.ekstrom, post #2: The quoted dead-volume figures for common configurations vary between manufacturers and the ordering is stable: fixed needle least, luer with hub more, luer with filter needle most. That much is documented. The rest is how I have interpreted it. Go to post

Filter needles are for drawing from glass ampoules where particulate is a real risk. For a stoppered vial they add dead volume in exchange for very little.

25 likes in reply to #2 23mo
BS
buffer_sheetTL3Regular24 Aug 2024#25

A detachable luer needle plus hub can retain enough volume to matter. Whether it matters to you depends on your dose, and the arithmetic is worth doing once.

7 likes 23mo
BW
b.wikstromTL226 Aug 2024#26
citation_index, post #10: The reason Dead volume across syringe is hard to answer is that the obvious measurement and the relevant quantity are not the same thing, and substituting one for the other is silent. Go to post

Picking up post #23: that is the part I would want checked first.

One more thing on Dead volume across syringe that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears.

1 like in reply to #10 23mo
BE
bench_entryTL3Regular28 Aug 2024#27
y.asante, post #5: Syringe barrel size: common sizes are 0.3 mL, 0.5 mL, and 1.0 mL. Smaller barrels are more legible for small doses. Larger barrels hold larger volumes. Choose based on your dose. I would put a moderate confidence on that and no more. Go to post

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

0 likes in reply to #5 23mo
PD
p.dialloTL230 Aug 2024#28
b.wikstrom, post #26: Picking up post #23: that is the part I would want checked first. One more thing on Dead volume across syringe that took me far too long to see: the two figures people quote are not measuring the same quantity. Once you notice that, the apparent contradiction disappears. Go to post

Needle length for subcutaneous delivery is a question about tissue depth and injection angle together. Short needles at ninety degrees and longer ones at an angle reach comparable depths.

18 likes in reply to #26 23mo
BJ
b.jankowiakTL3Regular2 Sep 2024#29

I would keep Dead volume across syringe and the decision it usually gets used for separate in this thread. They are related and they are not the same question, and merging them is why the last one went badly.

24 likes 23mo
RM
r.mensahTL24 Sep 2024#30
e.dalgleish, post #21: Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together. Needle gauge: smaller numbers (30G) are finer and less painful. Larger numbers (25G) are courser. For subcutaneous injection, 27-30G is typical. Finer needles take longer to draw up but hurt less. That holds under the stated conditions and I have stated them. Go to post

If your calculated volume is under two graduations, choose a lower concentration rather than trying to read between marks. Precision comes from the preparation, not the eye.

11 likes in reply to #21 23mo