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Analytics · Impurities & related substances · continued

Oxidation pathways for methionine and tryptophan posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

WV
w.verhoevenTL228 Dec 2024 · edited#31

Incomplete deprotection: mass higher by the protecting group mass. Usually markedly later eluting. A synthesis artifact from incomplete removal of protecting groups.

Nothing above should be read as advice about what anyone else should do.

5 likes 19mo
SG
s.grigorescuTL2Member28 Dec 2024#32
DOdendaal, post #14: That is the distinction I keep failing to hold on to. Written down now. Go to post

Adding the measurement that post #31 says would settle it.

Adding what did not work for me on oxidation pathways for methionine, since the failures never get written up and they are half the useful information.

1 like in reply to #14 19mo
GT
g.tammTL228 Dec 2024#33
unit_conversion, post #4: Oxidation pathways for methionine: I would want to see the raw numbers rather than the summary before agreeing. Summaries lose exactly the information that would settle this. Go to post

Where I part company with post #31, and it is a narrow parting.

Oxidation pathways for methionine has a well-known answer and a correct answer, and the interesting work is establishing that they are the same. Nobody has done that here yet.

30 likes in reply to #4 19mo
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NicolaidesTL3Regular28 Dec 2024#34

Aggregates: multiples of the monomer mass. May not elute at all under a standard reversed-phase method. A species that does not come off the column does not appear in the area percentage.

The disagreement above is smaller than it looks once the terms are fixed.

15 likes 19mo
DA
d.achebeTL228 Dec 2024#35

Quietly grateful for the plain phrasing. Not every thread gets that.

9 likes 19mo
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NorringtonTL3Regular28 Dec 2024#36

Picking up post #34: that is the part I would want checked first.

Residual solvents: traces of solvents used in purification. These are usually tested by gas chromatography, not by HPLC. A specification for residual solvents should be stated separately from the purity.

Caveat: everything above assumes the paperwork is what it says it is.

2 likes 19mo
HK
h.krastevTL229 Dec 2024#37
eire_reader, post #8: Saving this. It is the version I will quote when the question comes round again. Go to post

An observation about oxidation pathways for methionine that I cannot explain and am posting anyway, on the principle that unexplained observations are more useful public than private.

0 likes in reply to #8 19mo
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DKwiatkowskiTL3Regular29 Dec 2024#38

My understanding of oxidation pathways for methionine is a few years old and may have been superseded. If it has been, I would genuinely like to know rather than keep repeating it.

21 likes 19mo
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s.adebayoTL229 Dec 2024#39
g.tamm, post #33: Where I part company with post #31, and it is a narrow parting. Oxidation pathways for methionine has a well-known answer and a correct answer, and the interesting work is establishing that they are the same. Nobody has done that here yet. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #36 runs together.

Relative response factors mean impurities are not detected in proportion to how much of them is present. A one per cent peak is not one per cent by mass unless the response factors happen to match.

I would put a moderate confidence on that and no more.

14 likes in reply to #33 19mo
FN
formulary_notesTL3Regular29 Dec 2024#40
f.sjoberg, post #25: Picking up post #22: that is the part I would want checked first. Distinguishing three things in the oxidation pathways for methionine discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both. Go to post

Offering a way to settle oxidation pathways for methionine rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision.

5 likes in reply to #25 19mo
AC
a.cardosoTL229 Dec 2024#41

If you are new and reading this thread for the answer to oxidation pathways for methionine: the answer is conditional, the conditions are in the third reply, and the rest of the thread is worth skipping.

12 likes 19mo
BR
buffer_reviewTL3Regular29 Dec 2024#42

Where an impurity is identified rather than merely counted, the certificate is telling you the manufacturer has characterised its own process. That is a meaningful difference in documentation quality.

Where I would look next, rather than where I would stop.

26 likes 19mo
AN
a.norgaardTL229 Dec 2024#43
dr_okonkwo, post #26: On post #25 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification. The honest reading of a purity figure: it is an upper bound on how much of what the method could see was the intended species, under one integration convention, on one sample. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

This follows post #40 rather than contradicting it.

The arithmetic on oxidation pathways for methionine is the easy part and it is where the errors are, which is an uncomfortable combination. Show your working and someone will catch it.

0 likes in reply to #26 19mo
TI
trough_indexTL3Regular29 Dec 2024#44

Worth separating two things that post #42 runs together.

Where the oxidation pathways for methionine discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on.

2 likes 19mo
AK
ak.kravchenkoTL229 Dec 2024#45

Acetate content: counter-ion content. Trifluoroacetate or acetate from the salt form of the peptide. Affects mass calculations and should be stated on a complete certificate.

The conclusion is tentative; the arithmetic underneath it is not.

18 likes 19mo
AD
ambient_draftTL3Regular29 Dec 2024#46
m.perrin, post #23: Oxidation pathways for methionine sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly. Go to post

Related substances: compounds chemically related to the target peptide but not the target peptide itself. The standard method separates them and reports them as area percent. How related they can be before they exceed specification is a regulatory question.

I would rather say I do not know than round it up to an answer.

0 likes in reply to #23 19mo
MA
mi.amankwahTL229 Dec 2024#47

Taking post #44 at face value and following it one step further.

Second-hand on oxidation pathways for methionine, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself.

0 likes 19mo
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LJankowiakTL3Regular30 Dec 2024#48

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

4 likes 19mo
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c.nybergTL230 Dec 2024#49

The arithmetic in post #47 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

The honest answer on oxidation pathways for methionine is that it depends, and the useful part is the list of what it depends on. Four items, in rough order of how much they matter.

Most people get the first two right and then argue about the fourth.

24 likes 19mo
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PWendelboeTL1Member30 Dec 2024#50
c.okafor, post #30: Worth separating two things that post #28 runs together. Oxidation pathways for methionine looks different depending on whether you are reading the primary literature or the summaries of it, and the difference is not in our favour. Go to post

Answering the question post #46 raises rather than the one it answers.

Disulfide formation: if a peptide contains cysteine, it can form disulfide bonds with itself or with other molecules. Under oxidising conditions multiple species appear. Reducing conditions (like DTT) convert them back.

0 likes in reply to #30 19mo
DO
d.oyelaranTL3Pharmacist30 Dec 2024#51

What I would want before treating oxidation pathways for methionine as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing.

7 likes 19mo
CT
c.tullochTL230 Dec 2024#52
s.karlsen_rph, post #24: Clear enough that I do not think I have a follow-up, which is unusual. Go to post

My experience of oxidation pathways for methionine contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

1 like in reply to #24 19mo
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KLindqvistTL4 Moderator30 Dec 2024 · edited#53

Where I part company with post #49, and it is a narrow parting.

Peptide impurities that differ by a single residue are the hardest to resolve and the most likely to be biologically relevant, which is an unfortunate combination.

Not a strong opinion, just a consistent one.

0 likes 19mo
FK
f.kimaniTL230 Dec 2024#54

Reading back through the oxidation pathways for methionine threads from last year, the same three questions come up every time and only one of them has ever been answered properly. That seems like a documentation gap rather than a knowledge gap.

24 likes 19mo
LW
l.wikstromTL230 Dec 2024#55

On oxidation pathways for methionine: the maintained page in the documentation commons covers the general case with citations and a review date, which is more reliable than any reply here including this one.

11 likes 19mo
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v.nascimentoTL230 Dec 2024#56
s.grigorescu, post #32: Adding the measurement that post #31 says would settle it. Adding what did not work for me on oxidation pathways for methionine, since the failures never get written up and they are half the useful information. Go to post

Narrowing post #53, because the general version has more than one answer.

Reporting thresholds matter: below a stated threshold, peaks are usually not reported at all. A clean-looking table may reflect a high threshold rather than a clean synthesis.

None of the above is medical advice and I am not qualified to give any.

3 likes in reply to #32 19mo
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n.rahimiTL230 Dec 2024#57

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of oxidation pathways for methionine yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

0 likes 19mo
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p.amankwahTL230 Dec 2024#58

Oxidation at methionine or tryptophan adds sixteen per oxygen and typically elutes earlier. In aged material it is the modification that grows.

32 likes 19mo
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i.coelhoTL231 Dec 2024#59
c.tulloch, post #52: My experience of oxidation pathways for methionine contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that. Go to post

On post #57 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Worth separating oxidation pathways for methionine as a question about the compound from oxidation pathways for methionine as a question about the documentation. They get answered by different people and only one of them is answerable here.

16 likes in reply to #52 19mo
DP
d.petrescuTL231 Dec 2024#60
formulary_notes, post #40: Offering a way to settle oxidation pathways for methionine rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision. Go to post

Trifluoroacetate is a counter-ion rather than an impurity, and it appears in the mass balance rather than in the chromatogram. Conflating the two accounts for several confused threads here.

The claim is narrower than it sounds, and deliberately so.

6 likes in reply to #40 19mo