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Analytics · COA interpretation

Second pass at: A field-by-field walk through a certificate of analysis

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Solved by r.sobczak in post #6
The arithmetic in post #5 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check. Worth stating the null on field-by-field walk through a certificate before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

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a.nybergTL23 Jul 2024#1

Second pass at: A field-by-field walk through a certificate of analysis Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did.

The question about field-by-field walk through a certificate that I actually want answered is the second one below. The first is context and I have kept it short.

Both are stated with units, and I have said what I already checked so that nobody repeats it.

4 likes 2.1y
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t.marchettiTL26 Jul 2024#2

Narrowing the opening post, because the general version has more than one answer.

If you are new and reading this thread for the answer to field-by-field walk through a certificate: the answer is conditional, the conditions are in the third reply, and the rest of the thread is worth skipping.

0 likes 2.1y
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PWendelboeTL1Member8 Jul 2024#3

The bit of field-by-field walk through a certificate that nobody enjoys is that the answer changes depending on what you are trying to decide with it. Say what the decision is and the thread will converge.

19 likes 2.1y
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c.nybergTL211 Jul 2024#4
a.nyberg, post #1: Second pass at: A field-by-field walk through a certificate of analysis Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. The question about field-by-field walk through a certificate that I actually want answered is the second one below. The first is context and I have kept it short. Both are stated with… Go to post

An itemised related-substances table with retention times says considerably more about the synthesis than a single total. A total tells you how much is not the main peak and nothing about what it is.

8 likes in reply to #1 2y
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e.almeidaTL2Member13 Jul 2024#5
c.nyberg, post #4: An itemised related-substances table with retention times says considerably more about the synthesis than a single total. A total tells you how much is not the main peak and nothing about what it is. Go to post

Answering the question the opening post raises rather than the one it answers.

My position on field-by-field walk through a certificate is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly.

18 likes in reply to #4 2y
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r.sobczakTL2 Solution14 Jul 2024 · edited#6

The arithmetic in post #5 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Worth stating the null on field-by-field walk through a certificate before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

7 likes 2y
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IHollingworthTL2Member16 Jul 2024#7

Grateful for the specificity. Vague answers to this question are what sent me looking.

0 likes 2y
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n.ramosTL218 Jul 2024#8

"Not less than 98 per cent" is a specification. "98.3 per cent" is a result. A certificate carrying only the first has not told you what was measured.

0 likes 2y
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isotonic_sheetTL3Regular19 Jul 2024#9

Post #5 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Adding what did not work for me on field-by-field walk through a certificate, since the failures never get written up and they are half the useful information.

25 likes 2y
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h.brandtTL221 Jul 2024#10

I will take the caveat as seriously as the claim, which is the point of putting it there.

11 likes 2y
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s.leclercTL4 Moderator23 Jul 2024#11

Taking post #9 at face value and following it one step further.

I would rather this thread reach "we do not know" about field-by-field walk through a certificate than reach a confident answer that nobody can support when asked.

15 likes 2y
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n.silvaTL224 Jul 2024#12
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ms_hollowayTL4Mass spectrometrist26 Jul 2024#13

Peptide content and chromatographic purity are separate determinations and a certificate that reports only one has answered only one question. Content is the one that tells you how much is in the vial.

This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it.

1 like 2y
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e.iyerTL227 Jul 2024#14

A certificate is a statement by its issuer that a defined test was performed on a defined lot and produced a defined result. That is all it is, and it is not nothing.

6 likes 2y
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k.radichTL229 Jul 2024#15
h.brandt, post #10: I will take the caveat as seriously as the claim, which is the point of putting it there. Go to post

Where the field-by-field walk through a certificate reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for.

22 likes in reply to #10 2y
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b.oseiTL230 Jul 2024 · edited#16
e.iyer, post #14: A certificate is a statement by its issuer that a defined test was performed on a defined lot and produced a defined result. That is all it is, and it is not nothing. Go to post

Worth separating two things that post #13 runs together.

A note on scope: what I am saying about field-by-field walk through a certificate applies to the case in the first post and I would not extend it further without checking.

0 likes in reply to #14 2y
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a.reyesTL4 Admin31 Jul 2024#17

The distinction between release testing and characterisation is one industrial documents make and retail ones usually do not. It is the difference between "we tested every lot for this" and "we established this once".

I would want a second opinion before relying on that.

2 likes 2y
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l.salinasTL22 Aug 2024#18

Same experience here, different supplier, so it is at least not unique to one of them.

10 likes 2y
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h.oyelowoTL23 Aug 2024#19
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m.radichTL25 Aug 2024#20

Field-by-field walk through a certificate would be much easier to settle if anyone reported the denominator. Almost nobody reports the denominator.

16 likes 2y
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s.achebeTL26 Aug 2024#21

I had written a reply contradicting post #17 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

The strongest argument against my own position on field-by-field walk through a certificate, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet.

0 likes 2y
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VThorvaldsenTL3Regular7 Aug 2024#22

Confirming post #21 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

A chromatogram supplied as a small image is legible for peak shape and not for baseline detail. That is enough to sanity-check an integration and not enough to reproduce it.

The interesting part of this is the exception, and I do not understand the exception.

18 likes 2y
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j.hartmannTL29 Aug 2024#23
e.almeida, post #5: Answering the question the opening post raises rather than the one it answers. My position on field-by-field walk through a certificate is current rather than settled. I have revised it once already and I expect to again, so treat it accordingly. Go to post

Asking for the batch record rather than the certificate is a reasonable request and the response to it is informative whichever way it goes.

Worth one more sentence than it usually gets.

7 likes in reply to #5 2y
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KnowltonTL3Regular10 Aug 2024 · edited#24

What I would tell a new member reading about field-by-field walk through a certificate for the first time: the confident posts are not the reliable ones, and the reliable ones are longer.

1 like 2y
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mi.almeidaTL211 Aug 2024#25

Coming back to post #21, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Trying to state the field-by-field walk through a certificate position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test.

0 likes 2y
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s.poulsenTL3Regular12 Aug 2024#26

Fair, and the limits you put on it are the part I will remember.

24 likes 2y
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k.agyemanTL214 Aug 2024#27
n.ramos, post #8: "Not less than 98 per cent" is a specification. "98.3 per cent" is a result. A certificate carrying only the first has not told you what was measured. Go to post

Endotoxin testing is separate: a certificate of purity says nothing about endotoxin. A chemically pure preparation can carry a clinically significant endotoxin load. If endotoxin matters, it needs to be tested and reported.

11 likes in reply to #8 23mo
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n.torrenceTL3Regular15 Aug 2024#28
t.marchetti, post #2: Narrowing the opening post, because the general version has more than one answer. If you are new and reading this thread for the answer to field-by-field walk through a certificate: the answer is conditional, the conditions are in the third reply, and the rest of the thread is worth skipping. Go to post

What fields matter on a certificate: lot number matching the vial, test date, the analytical method stated specifically, the measured result as a number, and the acceptance limit stated separately. A certificate missing any of these is weaker.

3 likes in reply to #2 23mo
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ni.stanescuTL216 Aug 2024#29

When method identifiers are missing: "reversed-phase HPLC" is less specific than "reversed-phase HPLC at 214 nm on a C18 column with a 10 to 40% acetonitrile gradient over 20 minutes". The second lets someone reproduce the analysis. The first does not.

0 likes 23mo
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j.habermannTL3Regular17 Aug 2024#30
VThorvaldsen, post #22: Confirming post #21 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person. A chromatogram supplied as a small image is legible for peak shape and not for baseline detail. That is enough to sanity-check an integration and not enough to reproduce it. The interesting part of this is the exception, and I do not… Go to post

Where two documents for the same lot disagree, the useful question is which was measured and which was transcribed. Most such disagreements are the second.

33 likes in reply to #22 23mo