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Analytics · Mass spectrometry · continued

Counter-ion content and its effect on measured mass posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1 · go to the accepted answer.

OO
orbitrap_olaTL3Mass spectrometrist10 Jun 2025#61

Picking up post #60: that is the part I would want checked first.

Deamidation adds approximately one dalton and produces a species that frequently elutes very close to the parent. It is the hardest common impurity to see chromatographically and the easiest to see by mass.

2 likes 14mo
IA
i.almeidaTL211 Jun 2025 · edited#62

On post #58 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct.

8 likes 14mo
DS
dr_seongTL3Physician13 Jun 2025#63
s.girard, post #55: Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory. Go to post

Adding a small correction to the counter-ion content summary above rather than a disagreement with it. The substance holds; one of the figures is out by a factor that matters.

19 likes in reply to #55 13mo
CV
c.vasquezTL214 Jun 2025#64
CL
customs_ledgerTL3Regular15 Jun 2025#65

Mass error in parts per million is (observed minus theoretical) divided by theoretical, times a million. On a high-resolution instrument a low single-digit figure is unremarkable and expected.

Posting it because the silence on this was starting to look like agreement.

4 likes 13mo
FW
f.weissTL216 Jun 2025#66

Worth separating two things that post #62 runs together.

On counter-ion content the community has more anecdote than the confidence in this thread implies, and I include my own contribution in that.

12 likes 13mo
WN
w.novakTL3Regular17 Jun 2025#67
m.nascimento, post #51: Worth separating two things that post #47 runs together. Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Worth checking against a second source before it gets quoted… Go to post

Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory.

26 likes in reply to #51 13mo
NK
n.kravchenkoTL218 Jun 2025#68
w.novak, post #67: Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory. Go to post

Good question, well framed, and I would like to see it answered properly.

0 likes in reply to #67 13mo
ME
me.eriksenTL219 Jun 2025#69
ML
m.lehtinenTL221 Jun 2025#70

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

The step people skip is the one I have spelled out.

18 likes 13mo
N
NicolaidesTL3Regular22 Jun 2025#71

Post #70 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

Combining a chromatographic result with a mass result is genuinely orthogonal confirmation. Either alone leaves a specific class of problem invisible, and the two classes do not overlap much.

7 likes 13mo
WV
w.verhoevenTL223 Jun 2025#72
Okafor, post #6: The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had. The literature is thinner on this than the confidence in the thread implies. Go to post

Taking post #70 at face value and following it one step further.

Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material.

1 like in reply to #6 13mo
SG
s.grigorescuTL2Member24 Jun 2025#73

No notes. Posting so the count is not one.

0 likes 13mo
RW
r.weissTL225 Jun 2025#74

Source for the counter-ion content figure, since it was asked for. It is in the discussion rather than the abstract, which is why the version circulating is stronger than the paper is.

Reading the surrounding paragraph is worth the two minutes. The authors are more careful than their summarisers.

24 likes 13mo
D
DKwiatkowskiTL3Regular26 Jun 2025#75

Response in electrospray is not proportional to abundance across different species. Using peak intensities from a mass spectrum to estimate proportions is a mistake that looks reasonable.

I am aware this is the third time this month I have made this point.

11 likes 13mo
DA
d.achebeTL227 Jun 2025#76

This follows post #74 rather than contradicting it.

An acylated peptide has a mass that reflects the modification, so comparing against the mass of the unmodified backbone gives a mismatch that is not an error.

Reporting the observation and leaving the explanation open deliberately.

3 likes 13mo
N
NorringtonTL3Regular28 Jun 2025 · edited#77
f.danquah, post #57: Monoisotopic and average mass are different numbers and both appear on documents. At this molecular weight the difference is a few daltons, which is more than the tolerance being claimed. I have left out the parts I could not verify. Go to post

For a compound with no reference standard in circulation, an observed mass is much more useful than an assertion of agreement with a theoretical value nobody can check.

0 likes in reply to #57 13mo
GT
g.tammTL229 Jun 2025#78

Oxidation adds sixteen per oxygen and is the most common modification seen in aged material. Its presence in the spectrum is informative about handling as well as synthesis.

The rule of thumb is fine; the edge cases are where it earns its keep.

32 likes 13mo
WP
weekly_pinTL2Regular1 Jul 2025#79
b.osei, post #40: Picking up post #38: that is the part I would want checked first. Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected. Go to post

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

I would treat the number as indicative rather than as a measurement.

16 likes in reply to #40 13mo
SA
s.adebayoTL22 Jul 2025#80
m.yildiz, post #23: Before the thread moves on from counter-ion content — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred. Go to post

A note on how counter-ion content gets discussed rather than on counter-ion content itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often.

6 likes in reply to #23 13mo
KB
k.brandl_deTL3Translator · DE3 Jul 2025#81

Adding thanks rather than a view. I do not have a view worth the space.

6 likes 13mo
VB
v.bruunTL24 Jul 2025#82

I keep a log for counter-ion content specifically because my memory of it turned out to be systematically wrong in one direction. Six weeks of notes cost nothing and settled it.

16 likes 13mo
AK
a.kowalczykTL2Regular5 Jul 2025#83

Confirming post #82 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests.

0 likes 13mo
MA
m.almeidaTL26 Jul 2025 · edited#84
t.nardone, post #18: Picking up post #15: that is the part I would want checked first. Checked the counter-ion content claim against the primary source this morning. It survives, with a narrower scope than the version quoted here. Posting the narrower scope. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #80 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

1 like in reply to #18 13mo
G
GEldridgeTL3Regular7 Jul 2025#85
mi.amankwah, post #46: What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else. The general case is well covered; this is the awkward specific one. Go to post

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

That is what I would do. It may not be what is correct.

3 likes in reply to #46 13mo
HJ
h.jansenTL28 Jul 2025#86

On post #84 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

11 likes 13mo
DB
d.bramleyTL3Regular9 Jul 2025#87

Post #86 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

32 likes 13mo
VK
v.kjaerTL210 Jul 2025#88

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

0 likes 13mo
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RidgewayTL3Regular11 Jul 2025#89

Narrowing post #86, because the general version has more than one answer.

A mass match establishes that the measured mass is consistent with the proposed composition. It does not establish purity, sequence order, or the absence of an isomer, and all three are frequently claimed from it.

The honest answer is that it depends, and here is what it depends on.

1 like 13mo
ZA
z.adeyemiTL212 Jul 2025#90

This is the first time the answer has come with its own limits attached. Appreciated.

7 likes 13mo