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Evidence · Trials · continued

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

SS
s.silvaTL222 Apr 2025#31
dr.villanueva, post #28: Building on post #25 rather than restating it. Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results. If anyone has run this properly I would rather read that than my own… Go to post

Narrowing post #28, because the general version has more than one answer.

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

Worth one more sentence than it usually gets.

7 likes in reply to #28 15mo
EF
e.ferrariTL223 Apr 2025#32
i.rasmussen, post #4: Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size. The evidence for this is thinner than the way I have phrased it suggests. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

The interesting part of this is the exception, and I do not understand the exception.

17 likes in reply to #4 15mo
K
KnowltonTL3Regular23 Apr 2025#33

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

33 likes 15mo
EK
e.kimaniTL223 Apr 2025#34

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

0 likes 15mo
LD
l.dziedzicTL224 Apr 2025 · edited#35

That is the distinction I keep failing to hold on to. Written down now.

11 likes 15mo
NL
n.lehtinenTL224 Apr 2025#36
titration_diary, post #1: Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? I have a specific reason for asking rather than idle curiosity, and the context is below. Reading STEP 1 ( N Engl J Med , 2021) for the population rather than the effect, which I have not done properly before. The baseline table is more restrictive than the… Go to post

Answering the question post #34 raises rather than the one it answers.

Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together.

On reflection I would soften that slightly.

24 likes in reply to #1 15mo
PA
p.amankwahTL224 Apr 2025#37

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

A qualification I should have led with rather than closed on.

0 likes 15mo
NR
n.rahimiTL225 Apr 2025#38

An open-label trial is not worthless and its subjective endpoints deserve more scepticism than its objective ones. That is a graded judgement rather than a verdict.

1 like 15mo
CT
c.tullochTL225 Apr 2025#39
s.grimaldi, post #27: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Effect sizes in a trial population reflect adherence achieved under trial conditions, which is generally better than adherence outside them.

1 like in reply to #27 15mo
DO
d.oyelaranTL3Pharmacist25 Apr 2025#40

Coming back to post #38, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

A trial that answers a slightly different question from the one you have is the normal situation rather than a failure of the trial. The skill is describing the gap precisely.

7 likes 15mo
RP
r.petrovTL226 Apr 2025#41

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

2 likes 15mo
RI
retention_indexTL2Analytical chemist26 Apr 2025#42

Post #39 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

0 likes 15mo
MA
m.adeyemiTL226 Apr 2025#43

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

Someone will know this better than I do and I hope they say so.

20 likes 15mo
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist27 Apr 2025#44
s.poulsen, post #7: Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together. I looked this up rather than remembered it, which is the right order. Go to post

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

9 likes in reply to #7 15mo
AK
a.kirchnerTL227 Apr 2025#45

Helpful, and short, which on this subject is harder than long.

5 likes 15mo
AD
appeals_deskTL3Regular27 Apr 2025#46

Post #43 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

I would want a second opinion before relying on that.

0 likes 15mo
YR
y.rahimiTL228 Apr 2025#47

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

28 likes 15mo
P
preregisteredTL3Research methods28 Apr 2025 · edited#48
ch.correia, post #12: This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not. Go to post

Reading the supplementary appendix is where most of the real information is, and it is where almost nobody goes. The baseline table alone answers half the generalisability questions asked here.

14 likes in reply to #12 15mo
AT
a.teixeiraTL228 Apr 2025#49
g.bakken, post #29: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. Go to post

Trial duration determines what can be observed. A weight-change trajectory at 40 weeks and at 72 weeks are different observations and both get quoted as the result.

Second-hand, so weight it accordingly.

0 likes in reply to #29 15mo
RF
resistance_firstTL2Regular29 Apr 2025#50

Funding and trial conduct should be stated and are a weak predictor of anything on their own. Design quality is the stronger signal and it is checkable.

Scoping that to what I have actually seen rather than what I have read.

29 likes 15mo
ON
o.nybergTL229 Apr 2025#51
preregistered, post #48: Reading the supplementary appendix is where most of the real information is, and it is where almost nobody goes. The baseline table alone answers half the generalisability questions asked here. Go to post

Confirming post #50 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing.

Anyone with a larger sample, please post it.

5 likes in reply to #48 15mo
MW
m.wanjalaTL1Member29 Apr 2025#52
a.weiss, post #9: Safety findings from a trial powered for efficacy are underpowered by construction. Absence of a signal in that setting is weak evidence of absence. Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring. Go to post

Safety findings from a trial powered for efficacy are underpowered by construction. Absence of a signal in that setting is weak evidence of absence.

15 likes in reply to #9 15mo
SH
s.hartmannTL230 Apr 2025#53

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

The short answer was in the first line; everything after is the working.

0 likes 15mo
K
KForsbergTL230 Apr 2025#54
KK
k.kimaniTL230 Apr 2025#55

Nothing in a trial report is medical advice about an individual, and the gap between a population estimate and a person is exactly where clinical judgement lives.

3 likes 15mo
FF
f.fenwickTL3Regular1 May 2025 · edited#56
s.leclerc, post #15: Post #14 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing. Noting that I have skin in this question and have tried to discount for it. Go to post

Understood. Thank you for being specific about the limits of it.

10 likes in reply to #15 15mo
LA
l.aguirreTL21 May 2025#57

Picking up post #55: that is the part I would want checked first.

The estimand: what the trial set out to estimate. Two trials can be identical in structure but estimate different things by using different handling rules for people who stop taking the drug. Treatment-policy and hypothetical approaches are both legitimate but answer different questions.

I keep a log of this specifically because memory is unreliable about it.

30 likes 15mo
RF
r.friskTL21 May 2025#58

On post #57 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

The first question about any trial is what it set out to estimate, not what it found. Once the estimand is on the table the rest of the discussion is tractable.

One case, stated as one case.

0 likes 15mo
HF
h.ferrariTL22 May 2025#59
m.adeyemi, post #43: Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity. Someone will know this better… Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

1 like in reply to #43 15mo
EL
e.lehtinenTL22 May 2025#60

Post #57 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Entry criteria, run-in periods and the self-selection of people willing to enter a multi-year trial all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought and it constrains generalisation.

Worth saying I have only my own numbers here, and n is small.

6 likes 15mo