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Evidence · Trials · continued

Reading a trial's population section before its results — does this still hold? posts 121–150

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

JS
j.sorensenTL219 May 2025#121

Acknowledging rather than arguing. The reasoning holds as far as I can follow it.

31 likes 14mo
JC
j.castellanosTL219 May 2025#122

Where I part company with post #120, and it is a narrow parting.

Nothing in a trial report is medical advice about an individual, and the gap between a population estimate and a person is exactly where clinical judgement lives.

0 likes 14mo
EL
e.lokkenTL220 May 2025#123
z.okonkwo, post #94: The first question about any trial is what it set out to estimate, not what it found. Once the estimand is on the table the rest of the discussion is tractable. Go to post

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

If the premise is wrong, everything after it is decoration.

6 likes in reply to #94 14mo
CR
c.rasmussenTL220 May 2025#124
e.lokken, post #123: Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. If the premise is wrong, everything after it is decoration. Go to post

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

The claim is narrower than it sounds, and deliberately so.

16 likes in reply to #123 14mo
AW
a.wikstromTL220 May 2025#125

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

A guess, clearly labelled as one.

0 likes 14mo
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist20 May 2025#126

Post #124 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

A trial that answers a slightly different question from the one you have is the normal situation rather than a failure of the trial. The skill is describing the gap precisely.

Happy to be corrected if someone holds better data than mine.

1 like 14mo
CR
c.ramosTL221 May 2025#127

Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing.

I am not the right person to answer the follow-up to this.

10 likes 14mo
JM
j.mwangiTL4 Moderator21 May 2025#128
l.krastev, post #113: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

Funding and trial conduct should be stated and are a weak predictor of anything on their own. Design quality is the stronger signal and it is checkable.

I would not lead a decision with this, but I would not ignore it either.

22 likes in reply to #113 14mo
TI
trough_indexTL3Regular21 May 2025#129
s.leclerc, post #15: Post #14 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing. Noting that I have skin in this question and have tried to discount for it. Go to post

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

Two sources, same conclusion, and I could not rule out that one copied the other.

17 likes in reply to #15 14mo
EM
e.mwangiTL221 May 2025#130

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

It cost nothing to check and would have cost something not to.

32 likes 14mo
FD
f.danquahTL222 May 2025#131
k.roos, post #67: Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot. Go to post

Coming back to post #127, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Absolute numbers, not just relative: a 30% relative reduction tells you the ratio but not the practical magnitude. The event rate in each arm and the difference between them tells you how many people benefit.

22 likes in reply to #67 14mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular22 May 2025#132

Composite endpoints should be read component by component. A composite driven entirely by its softest component is a different finding from one where the components move together.

Posting it because the silence on this was starting to look like agreement.

10 likes 14mo
PK
p.krastevTL222 May 2025#133

Trial duration determines what can be observed. A weight-change trajectory at 40 weeks and at 72 weeks are different observations and both get quoted as the result.

Reading it again, the caveat matters more than the finding.

1 like 14mo
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor22 May 2025#134
l.krastev, post #113: Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence. This is where my knowledge stops and I would rather mark the edge than blur it. Go to post

Picking up post #131: that is the part I would want checked first.

Funding and trial conduct should be stated and are a weak predictor of anything on their own. Design quality is the stronger signal and it is checkable.

0 likes in reply to #113 14mo
AI
a.ilungaTL223 May 2025#135
k.kimani, post #55: Nothing in a trial report is medical advice about an individual, and the gap between a population estimate and a person is exactly where clinical judgement lives. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #131 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Multiplicity and multiple comparisons: if a trial tests many hypotheses, the chance of a false positive on at least one by random chance increases. This is why pre-specification of the primary endpoint matters and why secondary endpoints are weaker evidence.

15 likes in reply to #55 14mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular23 May 2025#136

Confirming post #135 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The first question about any trial is what it set out to estimate, not what it found. Once the estimand is on the table the rest of the discussion is tractable.

6 likes 14mo
SG
s.girardTL223 May 2025 · edited#137

Entry criteria, run-in periods and the self-selection of people willing to enter a multi-year trial all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought and it constrains generalisation.

That is the practical version. The rigorous version is longer and says the same thing.

0 likes 14mo
LE
logbook_erinTL3Regular23 May 2025#138

Seconded. It reads as careful rather than confident, which is the right register.

31 likes 14mo
VK
v.kirchnerTL224 May 2025#139

Generalisability: the enrolled population was selected in ways that matter. Entry criteria, run-in periods, and the simple fact that people who agree to a multi-year trial differ from people who do not, all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought, at the cost of external validity.

Not disagreeing with anyone above, just adding the bit I keep having to look up.

0 likes 14mo
VS
v.szaboTL3Analytical chemist24 May 2025#140

Narrowing post #139, because the general version has more than one answer.

Population narrowness: most trials in this class enrolled fairly specific groups. Baseline body mass index ranges, exclusion of renal disease, exclusion of certain comorbidities, all narrow the population. Applying point estimates to someone well outside the range is an extrapolation.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

21 likes 14mo
NN
n.nakamuraTL224 May 2025#141
k.kimani, post #55: Nothing in a trial report is medical advice about an individual, and the gap between a population estimate and a person is exactly where clinical judgement lives. Go to post

Building on post #140 rather than restating it.

Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers.

That is where I would start, not where I would stop.

0 likes in reply to #55 14mo
OC
o.cousineauTL3Regular24 May 2025#142
steady_state, post #87: A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers. Old habit: I write down the expected answer before I calculate it. Go to post

Confounding in observational data: a third variable can explain an apparent association. In a randomised trial, randomisation balances unknown confounders. In observational data, observed confounders can be adjusted for but unknown ones cannot.

4 likes in reply to #87 14mo
NV
n.vogelTL225 May 2025#143

Intent-to-treat versus per-protocol: ITT includes everyone assigned regardless of whether they took the drug. Per-protocol includes only those who completed it as intended. The two can give substantially different results.

12 likes 14mo
EO
e.okaforTL225 May 2025#144

Discontinuation handling is the methodological detail that most changes a result and gets the least attention. Read how missing data was imputed before reading the effect size.

That is a description of practice, not a recommendation of it.

26 likes 14mo
LT
l.trevinoTL225 May 2025 · edited#145

Reading the supplementary appendix is where most of the real information is, and it is where almost nobody goes. The baseline table alone answers half the generalisability questions asked here.

0 likes 14mo
SR
s.rasmussenTL225 May 2025#146
n.ekstrom, post #104: Absolute and relative effects answer different questions. Write down the event rate in each arm and the difference between them; everything quotable is derived from those two numbers. If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one. Go to post

Nothing to add, except that this is the answer I would give if asked.

2 likes in reply to #104 14mo
FW
f.wojcikTL226 May 2025#147

Risk of bias: structured appraisal of internal validity. Key things to assess: randomisation method (was it truly random or could someone predict the next assignment), concealment (could randomisation be subverted), blinding (who was blinded and why or why not), completeness of outcome reporting.

I am aware this is the third time this month I have made this point.

8 likes 14mo
ZY
z.yildizTL226 May 2025#148

I read post #147 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

A treatment-policy estimand asks what happens to people assigned to a strategy, including those who abandon it. A hypothetical estimand asks what would have happened had everyone continued. Both are legitimate and they give different numbers.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

19 likes 14mo
MN
m.ndiayeTL226 May 2025#149

Registration before enrolment, with the primary endpoint declared, is what makes outcome switching detectable. Checking the registry against the paper takes five minutes and is worth doing.

0 likes 14mo
ID
isotonic_driftTL1Member26 May 2025#150
e.lehtinen, post #60: Post #57 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. Entry criteria, run-in periods and the self-selection of people willing to enter a multi-year trial all narrow the population. That is how internal validity is bought and it constrains generalisation. Worth saying I have only my own numbers here, and n is small. Go to post

A trial that answers a slightly different question from the one you have is the normal situation rather than a failure of the trial. The skill is describing the gap precisely.

Written in the hope of being told what I have missed.

0 likes in reply to #60 14mo