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Analytics · Mass spectrometry · continued

Why mass spectrometry cannot tell you about an epimer posts 31–60

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

KP
k.perrinTL218 Jan 2025 · edited#31

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

That is what I would do. It may not be what is correct.

0 likes 18mo
BN
bench_notesTL4 Moderator19 Jan 2025#32

Tandem mass spectrometry: MS/MS fragments the molecular ion and uses fragment masses to confirm identity and detect modifications. A simple identity confirmation by LC-MS does not address post-translational modifications or impurities with the same or very close mass.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

3 likes 18mo
AN
a.nwosuTL221 Jan 2025#33

Tandem mass spectrometry with fragmentation gives sequence information that intact mass cannot. It is the analysis that would actually confirm identity, and it is rarely supplied.

That holds under the stated conditions and I have stated them.

10 likes 18mo
AB
a.batistaTL222 Jan 2025#34
h.jansen, post #27: Second-hand on mass spectrometry, so weight it accordingly — someone whose method I trust told me this and I have not verified it myself. Go to post

Coming back to post #31, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

An acylated peptide has a mass that reflects the modification, so comparing against the mass of the unmodified backbone gives a mismatch that is not an error.

22 likes in reply to #27 18mo
RV
r.villalobosTL223 Jan 2025#35

One caution on mass spectrometry: everything above assumes the underlying documentation is what it claims to be. That assumption is doing real work and is rarely stated.

0 likes 18mo
RD
r.danquahTL224 Jan 2025#36
MD
m.duarteTL225 Jan 2025#37
v.kjaer, post #25: Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material. Go to post

Confirming post #35 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers).

6 likes in reply to #25 18mo
OV
o.vogelTL226 Jan 2025#38
a.batista, post #34: Coming back to post #31, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. An acylated peptide has a mass that reflects the modification, so comparing against the mass of the unmodified backbone gives a mismatch that is not an error. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #34 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct.

16 likes in reply to #34 18mo
BK
b.kowalskiTL227 Jan 2025#39

For a compound with no reference standard in circulation, an observed mass is much more useful than an assertion of agreement with a theoretical value nobody can check.

31 likes 18mo
EF
e.ferreiraTL3Regular28 Jan 2025#40

Answering the question post #38 raises rather than the one it answers.

The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had.

0 likes 18mo
NB
n.brobergTL229 Jan 2025#41
h.iyer, post #6: Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation. It took me longer than it should have to see that. Go to post

Same experience here, different supplier, so it is at least not unique to one of them.

19 likes in reply to #6 18mo
SK
s.karlsen_rphTL3Pharmacist30 Jan 2025#42

Building on post #39 rather than restating it.

Positional isomers and epimers are mass-identical. Any argument that a mass result rules them out is wrong, and it is the commonest overclaim in this subcategory.

Adding the caveat now so it does not have to be extracted later.

8 likes 18mo
MP
m.perrinTL231 Jan 2025#43

Common adducts: sodium adds ≈22, potassium adds ≈38 compared to hydrogen. A [M+Na]+ peak is common and its mass is predictable from the base mass.

0 likes 18mo
DO
dr_okonkwoTL4 Moderator1 Feb 2025#44

Quantitation by MS: most quantitation is done by LC-UV detection at 214 nm, not by MS, because extinction coefficients are better known. MS can quantify if an internal standard is used but that requires preparation.

0 likes 18mo
FS
f.sjobergTL22 Feb 2025 · edited#45
a.aguirre, post #2: Adducts — sodium and potassium especially — shift the observed mass in predictable increments. A report showing an unexplained plus twenty-two is usually showing you a sodium adduct. Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable. Go to post

Response in electrospray is not proportional to abundance across different species. Using peak intensities from a mass spectrum to estimate proportions is a mistake that looks reasonable.

13 likes in reply to #2 18mo
CC
c.cardosoTL23 Feb 2025#46
m.duarte, post #37: Confirming post #35 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person. Purity and identity are different questions: LC-MS establishes that the species at a retention time has the expected mass. It does not establish how much of the sample is that species (that is what LC-UV purity answers). Go to post

Monoisotopic and average mass are different numbers and both appear on documents. At this molecular weight the difference is a few daltons, which is more than the tolerance being claimed.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

4 likes in reply to #37 18mo
ML
m.lehtinenTL24 Feb 2025#47

Post #43 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

An update on my earlier mass spectrometry post: the pattern held for another six weeks and then stopped, which I did not predict and cannot explain.

0 likes 18mo
ME
me.eriksenTL25 Feb 2025#48

Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected.

27 likes 18mo
CC
c.correiaTL26 Feb 2025#49

Trying to state the mass spectrometry position in a way that someone who disagrees would recognise as fair, because I do not think the version in this thread passes that test.

0 likes 18mo
RR
r.restrepoTL27 Feb 2025#50

Bookmarking this. I will come back when I have something worth adding.

18 likes 18mo
ID
integrator_draftTL3Regular8 Feb 2025#51
k.batista, post #14: I had written a reply contradicting post #12 and deleted it. Here is what survived. The honest summary of what a mass result buys you: it narrows the field of what the material could be, considerably. It never closes it, and no certificate should be read as though it had. Go to post

This follows post #49 rather than contradicting it.

Sample preparation for mass spectrometry can itself introduce modifications, particularly oxidation. A finding at trace level may be telling you about the preparation rather than the material.

The rule of thumb is fine; the edge cases are where it earns its keep.

28 likes in reply to #14 18mo
YR
y.ramosTL29 Feb 2025 · edited#52

Mass accuracy is expressed in parts per million. It is the difference between observed and theoretical mass divided by theoretical mass, multiplied by a million. A high-resolution instrument in good calibration achieves low single-digit ppm on a peptide of this size.

A qualification I should have led with rather than closed on.

0 likes 18mo
VK
v.klausenTL3Regular10 Feb 2025#53

Marking my place. If it changes for me I will come back and say so.

5 likes 18mo
CH
ca.haddadTL211 Feb 2025#54

Coming back to post #52, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

My experience of mass spectrometry contradicts the reply above. I am posting it as a data point rather than as a refutation, because one person's experience is exactly that.

13 likes 18mo
AS
a.stephanopoulosTL3Regular12 Feb 2025#55

Picking up post #54: that is the part I would want checked first.

Resolution and mass accuracy are different specifications. An instrument can resolve two species and still assign their masses imprecisely, and the reverse is also possible.

This is the version I would want a new member to read first.

0 likes 17mo
FI
f.ibarraTL213 Feb 2025#56

On post #52 — agreed on the reasoning, with one qualification.

Combining a chromatographic result with a mass result is genuinely orthogonal confirmation. Either alone leaves a specific class of problem invisible, and the two classes do not overlap much.

That is where I would start, not where I would stop.

0 likes 17mo
O
OkaforTL3Regular14 Feb 2025#57

Calibration matters: a high-resolution instrument out of calibration can report mass with ppm error large enough to be uninformative. Check when the instrument was last calibrated before trusting the reported accuracy.

8 likes 17mo
NS
n.szaboTL215 Feb 2025#58
me.eriksen, post #48: Trifluoroacetate adducts are common in material purified with TFA and are one reason a mass spectrum from a peptide can look busier than expected. Go to post

Deamidation adds approximately one dalton and produces a species that frequently elutes very close to the parent. It is the hardest common impurity to see chromatographically and the easiest to see by mass.

19 likes in reply to #48 17mo
D
DOdendaalTL3Regular16 Feb 2025#59
n.okwuosa, post #4: What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else. Go to post

Before the thread moves on from mass spectrometry — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

14 likes in reply to #4 17mo
CM
c.marchettiTL217 Feb 2025#60
stopper_trace, post #17: Thank you for the correction. I would rather find out here than later. Go to post

What mass accuracy establishes: the measured mass is consistent with a specific composition. What it does not establish: purity, sequence order, stereochemistry, or the absence of an isobaric species. Every one of those requires something else.

A weak preference rather than a position.

29 likes in reply to #17 17mo