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Evidence · Preprints · continued

How this community labels and discusses unrefereed work posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

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b.adeyemiTL25 Jul 2024#61

Community labels sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

4 likes 2.1y
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OFalkenbergTL1Member5 Jul 2024#62
hana.sato, post #22: Worth separating two things that post #20 runs together. Where a preprint contradicts a published trial, the prior should favour the trial. Where it extends one, the preprint can be genuinely useful. I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #60 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Sample size and pre-registration are checkable in a preprint exactly as in a paper, and they carry the same weight.

That is where I would start, not where I would stop.

12 likes in reply to #22 2.1y
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i.beaulieuTL25 Jul 2024 · edited#63
f.kimani, post #43: Practical answer on community labels, since the theoretical one is upthread: do the simplest check first, write down the result, and only then decide whether the complicated explanation is needed. It usually is not. Go to post

Picking up post #62: that is the part I would want checked first.

Distinguishing three things in the community labels discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

0 likes in reply to #43 2.1y
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IMainwaringTL3Regular6 Jul 2024#64

The strongest argument against my own position on community labels, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet.

0 likes 2.1y
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m.amankwahTL26 Jul 2024#65

Reading rather than contributing, but this is the most useful thread I have found on it.

1 like 2.1y
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NLoughranTL3Regular7 Jul 2024#66
i.guerrero, post #17: Answering the question post #13 raises rather than the one it answers. What I would want before treating community labels as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing. Go to post

Author track record is a weak signal and it is a signal. A group that has published carefully for years is a different prior from an unknown one.

A qualification I should have led with rather than closed on.

7 likes in reply to #17 2.1y
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n.hartmannTL27 Jul 2024#67

This follows post #66 rather than contradicting it.

Adding a null result on community labels. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

25 likes 2.1y
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vial_slopeTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#68

Worth separating two things that post #64 runs together.

Where the community labels reasoning breaks down for me is the step from the group result to the individual case. That step is almost never argued for.

0 likes 2.1y
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f.chowdhuryTL28 Jul 2024#69
b.okonkwo, post #24: Adding a reference point for community labels. Mine is a single case, collected without controls, and I am posting the method alongside it so it can be discounted appropriately. Go to post

Post #66 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

A preprint with the data and code attached is frequently more checkable than a published paper without them. Reviewed and reproducible are different properties.

0 likes in reply to #24 2.1y
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ThibodeauTL3Regular8 Jul 2024#70
n.zielinski, post #40: Unrefereed work is not worthless. A great deal of it survives review substantially unchanged. It is also the case that the version appearing in a journal frequently has different numbers, and the changes are not random — they tend to be in the direction of a smaller effect and a more careful claim. Correct me on the arithmetic if it is… Go to post

Discussing preprints in this community: bring them in for early discussion, label them clearly as preprints, invite peer critique, and be prepared for the discussion to differ if the paper is later published differently.

The variance between people here is larger than the effect being discussed.

4 likes in reply to #40 2.1y
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c.adebayoTL29 Jul 2024#71

I read post #67 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

An observation about community labels that I cannot explain and am posting anyway, on the principle that unexplained observations are more useful public than private.

31 likes 2.1y
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h.karlsenTL29 Jul 2024#72

My understanding of community labels is a few years old and may have been superseded. If it has been, I would genuinely like to know rather than keep repeating it.

15 likes 2.1y
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v.fontaineTL210 Jul 2024#73
Norrington, post #8: Worth separating two things that post #5 runs together. On community labels I would separate what is worth knowing from what is worth acting on. The first list is long and the second is short, and conflating them is how threads get heated. Go to post

That reframing is the whole thing. The facts I already had.

3 likes in reply to #8 2y
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z.yildizTL210 Jul 2024#74
IMainwaring, post #64: The strongest argument against my own position on community labels, stated as well as I can state it, since nobody else has yet. Go to post

Reading a preprint properly means doing some of the reviewer's job: methods first, then whether the analysis matches the plan, then the conclusion.

0 likes in reply to #64 2y
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hana.satoTL4 Moderator11 Jul 2024#75

Everything in post #71 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

The honest position on most preprints in this field is that they are interesting and provisional, and that saying both is not fence-sitting.

That is the version I use. It may not be the version that is correct.

0 likes 2y
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a.aguirreTL211 Jul 2024 · edited#76

Two sentences on community labels and then I will stop, because the rest is speculation and the thread is better without mine.

What is documented is narrow. What is inferred from it is broad. The gap between them is where every argument here lives.

22 likes 2y
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p.iyer_pharmdTL311 Jul 2024#77
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j.asanteTL212 Jul 2024#78
a.aguirre, post #76: Two sentences on community labels and then I will stop, because the rest is speculation and the thread is better without mine. What is documented is narrow. What is inferred from it is broad. The gap between them is where every argument here lives. Go to post

Taking post #75 at face value and following it one step further.

How to cite a preprint: author last name, first initial, et al. Title. Server name [preprint]. Posted date. Doi. Include the server name and note that it is a preprint.

1 like in reply to #76 2y
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n.dziedzicTL212 Jul 2024#79

Filing a mild objection to the consensus on community labels. Mild because I might be wrong; an objection because nobody has addressed the case that does not fit.

16 likes 2y
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BramleyTL2Member13 Jul 2024#80

The arithmetic in post #79 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Unrefereed work is not worthless. A great deal of it survives review substantially unchanged. It is also the case that the version appearing in a journal frequently has different numbers, and the changes are not random — they tend to be in the direction of a smaller effect and a more careful claim.

6 likes 2y
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TL4_HalvorsenTL4Leader · Journal club13 Jul 2024#81

The arithmetic in post #80 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

The honest position on most preprints in this field is that they are interesting and provisional, and that saying both is not fence-sitting.

It reads as pedantry until the day it does not.

0 likes 2y
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h.lindqvistTL213 Jul 2024#82
bias_variance, post #50: Since community labels keeps coming up, it should probably be a maintained page rather than a recurring thread. I am happy to draft it if someone with more direct experience will review it. Go to post

No notes. Posting so the count is not one.

5 likes in reply to #50 2y
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formulary_notesTL3Regular14 Jul 2024#83

Reframing community labels slightly, because I think the disagreement is about the question rather than the answer. If the question is "does it happen", yes. If it is "how often", nobody here knows.

14 likes 2y
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s.adebayoTL214 Jul 2024#84

Post #83 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

The documentation on community labels is better than this thread and I say that as someone who has posted in the thread.

28 likes 2y
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chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist15 Jul 2024#85

Where a preprint contradicts a published trial, the prior should favour the trial. Where it extends one, the preprint can be genuinely useful.

This has been discussed before and I could not find the thread, so, again.

2 likes 2y
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t.dumitruTL215 Jul 2024#86
b.adeyemi, post #61: Community labels sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly. Go to post

Community labels: I would want to see the raw numbers rather than the summary before agreeing. Summaries lose exactly the information that would settle this.

8 likes in reply to #61 2y
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endo_fellow_rkTL3Endocrinology fellow15 Jul 2024#87

Post #84 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

The claim about community labels upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes".

20 likes 2y
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r.ekstromTL216 Jul 2024 · edited#88

Where I part company with post #86, and it is a narrow parting.

Sample size and pre-registration are checkable in a preprint exactly as in a paper, and they carry the same weight.

It is worth stating the boring hypothesis before the interesting one.

0 likes 2y
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i.aranda_esTL2Translator · ES16 Jul 2024#89
g.tanaka, post #16: Answering the community labels question as asked, then the question I think is meant. As asked: yes, with the qualification below. As meant: it depends on how the first measurement was taken. Go to post

Unrefereed work is not worthless and a great deal of it survives review substantially unchanged. That is the accurate framing and it is not a licence to treat it as final.

4 likes in reply to #16 2y
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r.weissTL217 Jul 2024#90
r.mensah, post #36: Taking post #35 at face value and following it one step further. Community labels has been discussed here with more heat than it deserves, mostly because two definitions have been in play the whole time. Go to post

I read post #86 twice before replying, because I had assumed the opposite.

Offering a way to settle community labels rather than another opinion about it. Two measurements, taken the same way, a fortnight apart. If the difference is within the noise, the question was not answerable at this precision.

13 likes in reply to #36 2y