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Nutrition & Training · Hydration & electrolytes · continued

Second pass at: Sodium, potassium and magnesium when intake drops posts 61–90

This is a continuation of a long topic, addressed by post number rather than by page. Start at post 1.

KC
k.chukwuTL227 Aug 2024#61
Leiterman, post #1: Second pass at: Sodium, potassium and magnesium when intake drops Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. A hydration and intake question, with the figures, since this one is unanswerable without them. Fluid intake over a day, roughly, plus what I take with it and when. Intake is down… Go to post

Speaking only to Sodium as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect.

0 likes in reply to #1 23mo
AT
apostille_traceTL1Member27 Aug 2024#62

Adding salt to food is the intervention most consistently reported as helping and is also the one least likely to cause harm.

Same conclusion as the reply above, reached differently, which is mildly reassuring.

19 likes 23mo
HE
h.eriksenTL228 Aug 2024#63

Magnesium: deficiency during weight loss is common and symptoms (fatigue, muscle cramps) are nonspecific. Supplementation is inexpensive and low-risk if needed.

8 likes 23mo
ZL
z.laurentTL229 Aug 2024#64

Bookmarking this. I will come back when I have something worth adding.

2 likes 23mo
NN
n.nybergTL229 Aug 2024#65
b.aalto, post #58: The most useful reply I ever got about Sodium was a request to state my units. It sounds like pedantry and it has saved me twice. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #61 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Practical note on Sodium: write down what you expect before you look. The number of times I have found what I went looking for is higher than chance would allow.

27 likes in reply to #58 23mo
CL
c.lundgrenTL230 Aug 2024#66

Baseline measurements before a substantial change in intake give you something to compare against, and almost nobody has them.

I have changed my mind on this once already, so take it as current rather than settled.

13 likes 23mo
FV
f.villalobosTL230 Aug 2024#67

Exercise and electrolyte losses: sweating during exercise increases sodium and potassium losses. Electrolyte replacement during or after intense exercise helps maintain balance.

That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many.

4 likes 23mo
TP
t.pereiraTL231 Aug 2024 · edited#68
DOdendaal, post #9: Everything in post #5 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have. Reading this Sodium thread as someone who came in with a fixed view: the third and seventh replies moved me and the confident ones did not. Go to post

Where a laboratory result exists, quoting it with the reference interval makes the discussion tractable. Without it the thread is guesswork.

0 likes in reply to #9 23mo
DO
dr_okonkwoTL4 Moderator31 Aug 2024#69

Symptoms attributed to electrolytes here are non-specific and overlap with dehydration, low intake and poor sleep. Attribution from symptoms alone is unreliable.

20 likes 23mo
CG
c.grimaldiTL21 Sep 2024#70
dr_okonkwo, post #69: Symptoms attributed to electrolytes here are non-specific and overlap with dehydration, low intake and poor sleep. Attribution from symptoms alone is unreliable. Go to post

Post #69 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Very low total intake produces multiple simultaneous deficiencies rather than one, which is why single-nutrient reasoning goes wrong here.

On reflection I would soften that slightly.

8 likes in reply to #69 23mo
BF
b.friskTL22 Sep 2024#71
ma.balogun, post #10: Exercise and electrolyte losses: sweating during exercise increases sodium and potassium losses. Electrolyte replacement during or after intense exercise helps maintain balance. Go to post

Adding a reference point for Sodium. Mine is a single case, collected without controls, and I am posting the method alongside it so it can be discounted appropriately.

0 likes in reply to #10 23mo
TK
t.kulkarniTL3Regular2 Sep 2024#72

Sodium: losing weight involves losing some sodium. Electrolyte drinks or salty foods help maintain sodium balance. Very low sodium intake on these compounds raises orthostatic symptoms risk.

Reporting the observation and leaving the explanation open deliberately.

2 likes 23mo
IW
i.wojcikTL23 Sep 2024#73

Adding the measurement that post #72 says would settle it.

Magnesium supplementation is widely recommended in this space with very little supporting evidence for the indications it is recommended for.

I am aware this is the third time this month I have made this point.

9 likes 23mo
BE
bench_entryTL3Regular3 Sep 2024#74
f.villalobos, post #67: Exercise and electrolyte losses: sweating during exercise increases sodium and potassium losses. Electrolyte replacement during or after intense exercise helps maintain balance. That has been true for the cases I have seen and I have not seen many. Go to post

Post #70 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Genuine question rather than a rhetorical one: has anyone here actually observed Sodium, as opposed to read about it? The thread is long and I cannot tell.

20 likes in reply to #67 23mo
ND
n.duarteTL24 Sep 2024#75

Reading rather than answering, but this is the post I would point somebody at.

0 likes 23mo
V
VPoulsenTL3Regular4 Sep 2024 · edited#76

Post #74 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Potassium: similar to sodium; losing weight involves some potassium loss. Bananas, sweet potatoes, and other potassium-rich foods help. Severe depletion is rare but symptomatic (weakness, palpitations).

I have separated what I observed from what I concluded, which does not always happen.

0 likes 23mo
KA
k.asanteTL25 Sep 2024#77

The arithmetic in post #76 is right; the assumption feeding it is the part to check.

Sodium: I have looked for the primary source twice and failed twice. Either it does not exist or it is somewhere I do not know to look, and I would like to know which.

5 likes 23mo
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor6 Sep 2024#78
h.oyelowo, post #27: Where I part company with post #25, and it is a narrow parting. What I would check first on Sodium is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph. Go to post

Careful with the language on Sodium. "Not detected" and "not present" are different findings and the first is a statement about the method.

14 likes in reply to #27 23mo
NK
n.kravchenkoTL26 Sep 2024#79
t.kulkarni, post #72: Sodium: losing weight involves losing some sodium. Electrolyte drinks or salty foods help maintain sodium balance. Very low sodium intake on these compounds raises orthostatic symptoms risk. Reporting the observation and leaving the explanation open deliberately. Go to post

Taking post #76 at face value and following it one step further.

Magnesium: deficiency during weight loss is common and symptoms (fatigue, muscle cramps) are nonspecific. Supplementation is inexpensive and low-risk if needed.

29 likes in reply to #72 23mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular7 Sep 2024#80

Fluid intake: baseline needs increase with gastrointestinal effects and exercise. Thirst is not a reliable guide during appetite suppression. Drinking regularly (not just when thirsty) is prudent.

0 likes 23mo
ST
s.teixeiraTL27 Sep 2024#81

Coming back to post #79, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

The very ordinary causes of week-two malaise: inadequate hydration, low sodium intake, too-rapid calorie deficit, and inadequate sleep are more common causes of fatigue and malaise than compound toxicity.

32 likes 23mo
K
KAnderssonTL3Regular8 Sep 2024#82

Saving this. It is the version I will quote when the question comes round again.

16 likes 23mo
MI
m.ilungaTL28 Sep 2024#83

Two people in this thread mean different things by Sodium and are disagreeing about the definition while believing they are disagreeing about the facts. Worth pausing to define it.

3 likes 23mo
DS
d.szymanskiTL3Wiki editor9 Sep 2024#84
l.aguirre, post #54: Sodium: losing weight involves losing some sodium. Electrolyte drinks or salty foods help maintain sodium balance. Very low sodium intake on these compounds raises orthostatic symptoms risk. Go to post

Lab testing: if symptoms are severe or persistent, checking electrolytes and minerals (sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium) and interpreting them in context of losses during weight loss is reasonable.

0 likes in reply to #54 23mo
MM
m.mwangiTL29 Sep 2024#85

Agreed on Sodium, with one qualification that I think matters. The reasoning holds for the case as described. Change the starting assumption and it does not, and the starting assumption is the part nobody states.

24 likes 23mo
GT
g.tanakaTL3Regular10 Sep 2024 · edited#86

Post #83 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

If someone has run Sodium properly I would rather read that than my own reconstruction of it. Posting mine only because the thread has gone quiet.

11 likes 23mo
EA
e.adeyemiTL210 Sep 2024#87

Sodium intake often falls sharply when processed food intake falls, and that transition is abrupt rather than gradual for many people.

Anyone with a larger sample, please post it.

1 like 23mo
PR
policy_readerTL2Regular11 Sep 2024#88
ppm_error, post #48: The very ordinary causes of week-two malaise: inadequate hydration, low sodium intake, too-rapid calorie deficit, and inadequate sleep are more common causes of fatigue and malaise than compound toxicity. Go to post

Exercise and electrolyte losses: sweating during exercise increases sodium and potassium losses. Electrolyte replacement during or after intense exercise helps maintain balance.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

0 likes in reply to #48 23mo
FR
f.rasmussenTL212 Sep 2024#89

Orthostatic symptoms: dizziness on standing after lying down can indicate dehydration or electrolyte depletion. Increasing fluids, salt, and potassium usually resolves it.

That is the practical version. The rigorous version is longer and says the same thing.

17 likes 23mo
MD
m.dalgaardTL3Regular12 Sep 2024 · edited#90

Symptoms attributed to electrolytes here are non-specific and overlap with dehydration, low intake and poor sleep. Attribution from symptoms alone is unreliable.

Scoping that to what I have actually seen rather than what I have read.

7 likes 23mo