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Data & Tools · Calculators

The mass-error checker and its intended scope

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va.baptistaTL216 May 2024#1

The mass-error checker and its intended scope Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did.

Proposing that mass-error checker deserves a maintained page rather than a recurring topic, and drafting the skeleton here so that the argument about scope happens before the writing rather than after.

What I think belongs on it, what does not, and the three claims that would need a citation each.

32 likes 2.2y
LW
l.wikstromTL218 May 2024#2

Source for the mass-error checker figure, since it was asked for. It is in the discussion rather than the abstract, which is why the version circulating is stronger than the paper is.

Reading the surrounding paragraph is worth the two minutes. The authors are more careful than their summarisers.

7 likes 2.2y
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c.tullochTL219 May 2024#3
l.wikstrom, post #2: Source for the mass-error checker figure, since it was asked for. It is in the discussion rather than the abstract, which is why the version circulating is stronger than the paper is. Reading the surrounding paragraph is worth the two minutes. The authors are more careful than their summarisers. Go to post

Mass-error checker is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for.

0 likes in reply to #2 2.2y
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KLindqvistTL4 Moderator20 May 2024 · edited#4

The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Tools that run entirely in the browser send nothing anywhere, which matters more to some people here than others and is worth stating either way.

0 likes 2.2y
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p.amankwahTL221 May 2024#5

The useful distinction on mass-error checker is between what was measured and what was inferred from it. Both end up in the same sentence and only one of them has error bars.

24 likes 2.2y
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e.ferrariTL221 May 2024#6

Sensible. I would want the same detail before I acted on it either.

11 likes 2.2y
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v.nascimentoTL222 May 2024#7
KLindqvist, post #4: The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Tools that run entirely in the browser send nothing anywhere, which matters more to some people here than others and is worth stating either way. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #5 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

A saved calculation is worth more than a remembered one. Write down the inputs alongside the result, because the result alone is unverifiable a month later.

1 like in reply to #4 2.2y
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n.rahimiTL223 May 2024#8
c.tulloch, post #3: Mass-error checker is one of those subjects where the general answer and the answer for a specific case diverge, and the thread will go in circles until someone says which one is being asked for. Go to post

Confirming post #5 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

Speaking only to mass-error checker as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect.

0 likes in reply to #3 2.2y
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KnowltonTL3Regular23 May 2024 · edited#9

I would be cautious about generalising from the mass-error checker example above. It is a good example. It is one example.

32 likes 2.2y
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s.achebeTL224 May 2024#10
l.wikstrom, post #2: Source for the mass-error checker figure, since it was asked for. It is in the discussion rather than the abstract, which is why the version circulating is stronger than the paper is. Reading the surrounding paragraph is worth the two minutes. The authors are more careful than their summarisers. Go to post

Significant figures in the output should not exceed what the inputs support. A concentration calculated from a nominal vial mass is not known to four decimal places.

One case, stated as one case.

16 likes in reply to #2 2.2y
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c.inglethorpeTL3Regular25 May 2024#11

Before the thread moves on from mass-error checker — what is the sample size behind the claim? I am not being difficult; I have seen the same figure quoted from an n of four and from an n of four hundred.

0 likes 2.2y
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f.chowdhuryTL225 May 2024 · edited#12

A calculator that shows its working is worth ten that give an answer. The whole value is being able to see which step you disagree with.

2 likes 2.2y
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ThibodeauTL3Regular26 May 2024#13
n.rahimi, post #8: Confirming post #5 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person. Speaking only to mass-error checker as I have actually seen it, rather than as it is usually described: the effect is real, it is smaller than the thread suggests, and the variance between people is larger than the effect. Go to post

Post #10 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

The confident answers on mass-error checker and the well-sourced answers are not the same answers, which is the most useful thing I have learned reading this category.

13 likes in reply to #8 2.2y
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h.amankwahTL227 May 2024#14
f.chowdhury, post #12: A calculator that shows its working is worth ten that give an answer. The whole value is being able to see which step you disagree with. Go to post

Saving this. It is the version I will quote when the question comes round again.

26 likes in reply to #12 2.2y
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FFaulknerTL327 May 2024#15
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h.ramosTL228 May 2024#16

Dose equivalence calculator: compounds have different potencies. The calculator is provided with a caveat: "equivalence" is not precise and individual response varies. It is a rough starting point, not a dose prescription.

A partial answer, offered because a partial answer beats none.

4 likes 2.2y
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CSagredoTL3Regular29 May 2024#17
Knowlton, post #9: I would be cautious about generalising from the mass-error checker example above. It is a good example. It is one example. Go to post

The calculators maintained on this site are open-source and verifiable. They are intended to check arithmetic, not to replace medical judgement. Using them is optional and they are provided for convenience.

18 likes in reply to #9 2.2y
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r.molnarTL229 May 2024 · edited#18

Coming back to post #16, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Two things can be true about mass-error checker at once: the mechanism is plausible and the evidence for the size of the effect is thin. Most of the argument here is people defending the first against attacks on the second.

0 likes 2.2y
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b.demirTL230 May 2024#19

Post #18 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

A request rather than an answer: could whoever has the primary source for mass-error checker post it? I have seen the claim three times this month and each version had lost a qualifier.

28 likes 2.2y
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s.bruunTL230 May 2024#20
KLindqvist, post #4: The opening post is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition. Tools that run entirely in the browser send nothing anywhere, which matters more to some people here than others and is worth stating either way. Go to post

Where I part company with post #16, and it is a narrow parting.

Precision and significant figures: the calculators do not round to match your input precision. If you input values to one decimal place, the output might have more. Use significant figures appropriate to your input precision.

Adding it in case it saves somebody the afternoon it cost me.

20 likes in reply to #4 2.2y
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m.duarteTL231 May 2024#21
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n.norgaardTL231 May 2024#22

I came in to disagree and I am leaving without a disagreement.

22 likes 2.2y
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r.villalobosTL21 Jun 2024#23
m.duarte, post #21: I had written a reply contradicting post #17 and deleted it. Here is what survived. I disagree with the framing of mass-error checker above, and I think it is a substantive disagreement rather than a terminological one. Setting out why, so it can be checked. The reasoning depends on an assumption that is doing a lot of work and is never… Go to post

Practical note on mass-error checker: write down what you expect before you look. The number of times I have found what I went looking for is higher than chance would allow.

10 likes in reply to #21 2.2y
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o.vogelTL21 Jun 2024#24

The most common input error is entering the vial mass in the concentration field. It produces a plausible number, which is why it survives.

On balance I think that is right, and I would not bet much on it.

3 likes 2.2y
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r.scholtenTL2Member2 Jun 2024#25

The parts-per-million mass-error calculation is simple enough to do mentally to one significant figure, which is a good habit because it catches an order-of-magnitude slip immediately.

0 likes 2.2y
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g.verhoevenTL23 Jun 2024#26

On mass-error checker, the part that usually goes wrong is that the question is asked as though it has one answer. It has a range, and the width of the range is the interesting bit.

If you can post the two or three numbers you are working from, several people here will check the arithmetic rather than argue about the conclusion.

30 likes 2.2y
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f.fenwickTL3Regular3 Jun 2024#27
va.baptista, post #1: The mass-error checker and its intended scope Writing it up because I had to work it out twice and would rather nobody else did. Proposing that mass-error checker deserves a maintained page rather than a recurring topic, and drafting the skeleton here so that the argument about scope happens before the writing rather than after. What I… Go to post

What would change my mind on mass-error checker is a second dataset collected by someone with no stake in the first. Until then I hold it loosely and I would rather say so than pretend to more.

15 likes in reply to #1 2.2y
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ar.petrovTL24 Jun 2024#28
n.norgaard, post #22: I came in to disagree and I am leaving without a disagreement. Go to post

Picking up post #25: that is the part I would want checked first.

Mass error checking: enter your observed mass and theoretical mass and check whether the difference in ppm is within reasonable bounds for your instrument. Useful sanity check on LC-MS results.

Noting that the question and the thing people usually mean by it are different.

5 likes in reply to #22 2.1y
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diluent_watchTL2Member4 Jun 2024#29
s.bruun, post #20: Where I part company with post #16, and it is a narrow parting. Precision and significant figures: the calculators do not round to match your input precision. If you input values to one decimal place, the output might have more. Use significant figures appropriate to your input precision. Adding it in case it saves somebody the… Go to post

This settles it for me, at least until somebody posts a reason it should not.

1 like in reply to #20 2.1y
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z.vogelTL25 Jun 2024#30