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Clinical · Special populations

Type 1 diabetes: off-label use and the evidence gap — what changed since

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Solved by nl_translator in post #4
Adolescents: a distinct evidence base exists. The compounds are not approved for routine adolescent obesity but are being studied. Adolescent physiology and psychology differ from adults' in ways that matter for this medication class.

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s.ostergaardTL218 Nov 2024#1

Type 1 diabetes: off-label use and the evidence gap — what changed since — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable.

What changes if the standard account of Type 1 diabetes is wrong? I ask because I have been treating it as settled and I noticed this week that I could not say why.

Working through the consequences rather than the evidence, since others here are better placed on the evidence.

19 likes 20mo
KR
k.redgraveTL2Member18 Nov 2024#2

The opening post answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

I read the earlier replies on Type 1 diabetes twice before writing this, because I had assumed the opposite and wanted to be sure I was disagreeing with what was said rather than what I expected.

3 likes 20mo
ZS
z.szaboTL218 Nov 2024 · edited#3

Helpful, and short, which on this subject is harder than long.

0 likes 20mo
NT
nl_translatorTL2Translator · NL Solution18 Nov 2024#4

Adolescents: a distinct evidence base exists. The compounds are not approved for routine adolescent obesity but are being studied. Adolescent physiology and psychology differ from adults' in ways that matter for this medication class.

8 likes 20mo
SD
s.demirTL219 Nov 2024#5

Genetic and ancestry-related differences in response are asked about regularly and the published evidence is thin enough that the honest answer is short.

Marking that as an opinion rather than a finding.

6 likes 20mo
C
CFairweatherTL1Member19 Nov 2024#6
s.demir, post #5: Genetic and ancestry-related differences in response are asked about regularly and the published evidence is thin enough that the honest answer is short. Marking that as an opinion rather than a finding. Go to post

Extrapolating a point estimate to somebody well outside the enrolled range should be described as an extrapolation every time it is done.

I would put the burden of proof on the interesting explanation, not the dull one.

1 like in reply to #5 20mo
AC
a.cabreraTL219 Nov 2024#7
nl_translator, post #4: Adolescents: a distinct evidence base exists. The compounds are not approved for routine adolescent obesity but are being studied. Adolescent physiology and psychology differ from adults' in ways that matter for this medication class. Go to post

Post #4 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it.

Worth stating the null on Type 1 diabetes before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one.

0 likes in reply to #4 20mo
CP
citation_peakTL3Regular19 Nov 2024#8

Building on post #7 rather than restating it.

A note on how Type 1 diabetes gets discussed rather than on Type 1 diabetes itself: the confident posts get the replies and the careful ones get ignored, and the careful ones have been right more often.

22 likes 20mo
IL
i.lehtinenTL219 Nov 2024#9
a.cabrera, post #7: Post #4 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. Worth stating the null on Type 1 diabetes before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one. Go to post

I had written a reply contradicting post #7 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Body weight at the extremes of the studied range affects exposure and the trials rarely reported enough to say by how much.

0 likes in reply to #7 20mo
QZ
q.zhao_qaTL3Quality assurance19 Nov 2024 · edited#10

Adolescent evidence exists for some compounds in this class and is a separate approval decision with its own trials rather than an extension of the adult data.

29 likes 20mo
PK
p.krastevTL219 Nov 2024#11

Post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit.

The claim about Type 1 diabetes upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes".

7 likes 20mo
V
VPoulsenTL3Regular20 Nov 2024#12
s.ostergaard, post #1: Type 1 diabetes: off-label use and the evidence gap — what changed since — setting out what I have, and where I think it stops being reliable. What changes if the standard account of Type 1 diabetes is wrong? I ask because I have been treating it as settled and I noticed this week that I could not say why. Working through the… Go to post

Coming back to post #10, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer.

Pregnancy and planning: these compounds are not approved for use in pregnancy. Planning windows (how long to wait before attempting pregnancy) are not formally established. Conservative approaches wait several months to allow clearance.

It took me longer than it should have to see that.

18 likes in reply to #1 20mo
FD
f.danquahTL220 Nov 2024 · edited#13

Type 1 diabetes has a well-known answer and a correct answer, and the interesting work is establishing that they are the same. Nobody has done that here yet.

0 likes 20mo
CC
crossref_checkTL3Wiki editor20 Nov 2024#14

Good question, well framed, and I would like to see it answered properly.

0 likes 20mo
SG
s.girardTL220 Nov 2024 · edited#15

Post #12 answers the question as asked. The question underneath it is different.

Athletes and people in substantial training loads are effectively unstudied, and the questions asked here about performance have no trial evidence behind them at all.

One of those cases where knowing the mechanism does not help the decision.

4 likes 20mo
CO
c.okaforTL3Regular20 Nov 2024#16

Being outside the studied population does not mean a treatment is unsafe. It means the usual evidence is not available and the reasoning has to be explicit.

Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable.

12 likes 20mo
AI
a.ilungaTL220 Nov 2024#17
a.cabrera, post #7: Post #4 put the caveat in the right place and I want to underline it. Worth stating the null on Type 1 diabetes before we explain it: the observation may be nothing. That possibility deserves a sentence and usually does not get one. Go to post

I have three months of notes on Type 1 diabetes and the honest summary is that the trend is real and the week-to-week numbers are noise. I nearly drew the opposite conclusion from the first fortnight.

26 likes in reply to #7 20mo
LE
logbook_erinTL3Regular20 Nov 2024#18

Something worth flagging about Type 1 diabetes: the strongest-sounding claims in this thread are the ones with no source attached, which is the usual pattern and not a coincidence.

0 likes 20mo
MN
m.nascimentoTL220 Nov 2024#19

The most useful contribution here is usually a citation to whichever published document comes closest, with a plain statement of how far it is from the question.

The strength of my opinion here exceeds the strength of my evidence.

2 likes 20mo
CL
coldchain_liuTL3Regular20 Nov 2024#20

What I would check first on Type 1 diabetes is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph.

8 likes 20mo
CR
c.ramosTL221 Nov 2024 · edited#21
VPoulsen, post #12: Coming back to post #10, because the follow-up matters more than the original answer. Pregnancy and planning: these compounds are not approved for use in pregnancy. Planning windows (how long to wait before attempting pregnancy) are not formally established. Conservative approaches wait several months to allow clearance. It took me… Go to post

Answering the question post #19 raises rather than the one it answers.

Type 1 diabetes is worth one more sentence than it usually gets, and the sentence is the one about how the number was arrived at.

6 likes in reply to #12 20mo
JC
j.castellanosTL221 Nov 2024#22

Medullary thyroid carcinoma history: an absolute contraindication because of the preclinical findings in rodent toxicology. The history (personal or family, especially multiple endocrine neoplasia type 2) is an important screening question.

1 like 20mo
JS
j.sorensenTL221 Nov 2024#23

No disagreement from me. Posting only so the question does not look ignored.

31 likes 20mo
CR
c.rasmussenTL221 Nov 2024#24

Post #22 is the version of this I will quote in future. One addition.

Where I would push back on the Type 1 diabetes consensus is the confidence, not the direction. The direction looks right. The confidence is borrowed.

16 likes 20mo
MA
m.adeyemiTL221 Nov 2024#25
c.okafor, post #16: Being outside the studied population does not mean a treatment is unsafe. It means the usual evidence is not available and the reasoning has to be explicit. Two people can read the same figure differently here and both be reasonable. Go to post

Distinguishing three things in the Type 1 diabetes discussion that keep getting used interchangeably: the observation, the proposed mechanism, and the recommendation that gets attached to both.

10 likes in reply to #16 20mo
C
chromatogramTL4Analytical chemist21 Nov 2024#26
p.krastev, post #11: Post #8 is right about the mechanism and I think understates the practical bit. The claim about Type 1 diabetes upthread is stronger than its source supports. I have read the source. The source says "associated with" and the post says "causes". Go to post

Dedicated trials in under-studied populations are the only real remedy and several are ongoing, which is worth saying rather than speculating.

I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one.

3 likes in reply to #11 20mo
AW
a.wikstromTL221 Nov 2024#27

I had written a reply contradicting post #24 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

Type 1 diabetes sits at the boundary between what this community can usefully discuss and what it cannot, and I think it falls on the discussable side, narrowly.

0 likes 20mo
JM
j.mwangiTL4 Moderator21 Nov 2024#28

Confirming post #27 from a second method, which matters more than confirming it from a second person.

The absence of a reported signal in a population that was barely enrolled is not evidence about that population.

22 likes 20mo
HK
h.koodziejTL2Member21 Nov 2024#29

Adding a null result on Type 1 diabetes. I looked, carefully, and found nothing, and null results deserve posting precisely because they never are.

15 likes 20mo
EM
e.mwangiTL222 Nov 2024#30
nl_translator, post #4: Adolescents: a distinct evidence base exists. The compounds are not approved for routine adolescent obesity but are being studied. Adolescent physiology and psychology differ from adults' in ways that matter for this medication class. Go to post

Nothing in this subcategory is medical advice and the questions asked here are precisely the ones that need an individual assessment.

I have seen it go both ways, which is why I hedge.

6 likes in reply to #4 20mo