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Sourcing · Red flags

When a red flag was a misunderstanding, and the retraction

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EC
excursion_checkTL3Regular7 Aug 2024#1

When a red flag was a misunderstanding, and the retraction — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked.

Posting a small dataset on red flag. It is mine, it is uncontrolled, and the method is stated so it can be discounted appropriately.

What I would like is not agreement but a second dataset collected by someone with no stake in mine. If one exists I would rather read it than argue for this one.

29 likes 2y
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a.sorensenTL212 Aug 2024#2

Second this, and I would have said it less carefully.

31 likes 2y
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e.okaforTL215 Aug 2024#3
a.sorensen, post #2: Second this, and I would have said it less carefully. Go to post

Inability to trace lots: if you ask "where was this synthesised, by whom, under what conditions" and cannot get a clear answer, that is a red flag. Traceability is not glamorous but it is foundational.

That is one dataset and I would not build a rule on it.

1 like in reply to #2 23mo
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l.trevinoTL218 Aug 2024#4
excursion_check, post #1: When a red flag was a misunderstanding, and the retraction — that is the question, and I have not found it answered plainly anywhere I have looked. Posting a small dataset on red flag. It is mine, it is uncontrolled, and the method is stated so it can be discounted appropriately. What I would like is not agreement but a second dataset… Go to post

Nothing here should be read as an accusation against a named company, and the guidelines exist so that reports remain reports.

Worth reading the earlier posts in this thread before acting on mine.

6 likes in reply to #1 23mo
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s.rasmussenTL221 Aug 2024#5

Adding the measurement that post #4 says would settle it.

Where the red flag discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on.

10 likes 23mo
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f.wojcikTL223 Aug 2024#6
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f.fonsecaTL225 Aug 2024#7
s.rasmussen, post #5: Adding the measurement that post #4 says would settle it. Where the red flag discussion usually stalls is that nobody wants to say "I do not know" and everyone is willing to say "it varies". Those are the same sentence with different clothes on. Go to post

Prices well below the rest of the market are a fact rather than a finding. They are worth noting and they do not establish anything on their own.

0 likes in reply to #5 23mo
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b.okonkwoTL228 Aug 2024 · edited#8

The arithmetic on red flag is the easy part and it is where the errors are, which is an uncomfortable combination. Show your working and someone will catch it.

3 likes 23mo
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a.aguirreTL230 Aug 2024#9

Evasion when asked: if a supplier does not clarify when asked specifically for method details, counter-ion form, or batch origin, that itself is a red flag worth documenting.

I would be interested in a counterexample if anyone has one.

30 likes 23mo
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hana.satoTL4 Moderator1 Sep 2024#10

Where somebody posts a concern, ask what would resolve it before arguing about it. Half of these threads end with a document nobody had asked for.

That holds for the case as described. Change the assumptions and it may not.

0 likes 23mo
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bias_varianceTL43 Sep 2024#11
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id.almeidaTL25 Sep 2024#12

The reason red flag is hard to answer is that the obvious measurement and the relevant quantity are not the same thing, and substituting one for the other is silent.

19 likes 23mo
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baseline_driftTL2Analytical chemist7 Sep 2024#13
l.trevino, post #4: Nothing here should be read as an accusation against a named company, and the guidelines exist so that reports remain reports. Worth reading the earlier posts in this thread before acting on mine. Go to post

Post #9 and I disagree about the size of the effect, not about the direction.

The guidelines draw that line for a practical reason as much as a fair one: reports accumulate into something useful and allegations do not.

8 likes in reply to #4 23mo
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n.krastevTL29 Sep 2024 · edited#14

Taking post #13 at face value and following it one step further.

Practical experience of red flag, offered as one case with the conditions stated, not as a general finding. Conditions first, because they are what make it interpretable.

2 likes 23mo
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two_year_lineTL3Regular11 Sep 2024#15

Everything in post #13 holds. The case it does not cover is the one I have.

What I would check first on red flag is whether the thing being measured moved or whether the way of measuring it moved. Those look identical in a graph.

27 likes 23mo
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s.kuuselaTL213 Sep 2024#16

Understood, and I withdraw the assumption I opened with.

13 likes 22mo
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batchlogTL3Regular15 Sep 2024#17
e.okafor, post #3: Inability to trace lots: if you ask "where was this synthesised, by whom, under what conditions" and cannot get a clear answer, that is a red flag. Traceability is not glamorous but it is foundational. That is one dataset and I would not build a rule on it. Go to post

A stock listing that never changes and a lead time that never varies are both worth noticing. Real operations have variation in them.

4 likes in reply to #3 22mo
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j.iyerTL217 Sep 2024#18

Building on post #17 rather than restating it.

The strongest single signal available cheaply is what happens when you ask a technical question. A quantitative answer inside a working day is difficult to fake at scale.

0 likes 22mo
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r.venkatesanTL3Wiki editor19 Sep 2024#19

I had written a reply contradicting post #17 and deleted it. Here is what survived.

The most useful contribution to this subcategory is a resolved case written up with the resolution, because the unresolved ones are all anyone remembers.

20 likes 22mo
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k.pereiraTL221 Sep 2024#20
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r.marsdenTL3Regular22 Sep 2024#21

Narrowing post #18, because the general version has more than one answer.

Where somebody posts a concern, ask what would resolve it before arguing about it. Half of these threads end with a document nobody had asked for.

I would treat that as a working assumption and revisit it.

28 likes 22mo
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n.serranoTL224 Sep 2024#22

Nobody has said the unglamorous part of red flag yet, so: most of the variation is explained by things that are boring to write about and easy to check.

0 likes 22mo
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g.valckenaereTL3Regular26 Sep 2024#23

Testimonials without a lot, a date, a method or a service are not evidence and are not a red flag either. They are simply not evidence.

5 likes 22mo
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f.fontaineTL228 Sep 2024#24
hana.sato, post #10: Where somebody posts a concern, ask what would resolve it before arguing about it. Half of these threads end with a document nobody had asked for. That holds for the case as described. Change the assumptions and it may not. Go to post

What I would want before treating red flag as settled: the method, the sample, and whether anyone tried to find the opposite result. Two of the three are usually missing.

13 likes in reply to #10 22mo
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desiccant_notesTL2Member29 Sep 2024 · edited#25

That is a cleaner way of putting what I was circling around.

20 likes 22mo
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s.roosTL21 Oct 2024#26

Answering the question post #24 raises rather than the one it answers.

Red flag is well covered in the tag pages, and the older discussions are better than the recent ones because they were argued out properly. Worth twenty minutes before adding to this one.

0 likes 22mo
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b.oylerTL1Member3 Oct 2024#27

The guidelines draw that line for a practical reason as much as a fair one: reports accumulate into something useful and allegations do not.

If this contradicts something upthread, the upthread version may well be the better one.

2 likes 22mo
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m.ramosTL25 Oct 2024#28
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ambient_reviewTL36 Oct 2024#29
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pe.onwukaTL28 Oct 2024#30

Post #27 describes the usual case. This is about the unusual one.

Inconsistency across documents: a certificate stating one purity, a website claiming another, and a supplier's verbal representation claiming a third, all on the same product, is a red flag for either incompetence or deception.

That is the shape of it. The detail is where I would expect to be corrected.

2 likes 22mo